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Guns Over Democracy
Monday, July 4, 2005; Page A16
PARLIAMENTARIANS gathered in Washington this holiday weekend from Europe and North America arrived just in time to witness the U.S. House of Representatives -- on the eve of the anniversary commemorating the signing of the Declaration of Independence -- trample upon the right of self-determination. Morphing themselves into city council members, a House majority overturned a city law and voted to allow D.C. residents to keep in their homes loaded shotguns and rifles, as well as handguns bought before 1976, unbounded by trigger locks or disassembled. The deed itself makes a mockery of Congress as a federal body. If the action is allowed to stand, however, the consequences could be even worse: The nation's capital will become a deadlier place in which to live.
The gun safety law that the House voted to repeal makes all the sense in the world. It enjoys the full backing of the city's mayor, council, police chief and, most important of all, the city's residents. Perhaps residents and their leaders want the law on the books because they know, even if the House does not, that properly locked or secured guns help prevent gun violence and accidental shootings. Perhaps District residents support their gun safety laws because they now see crime in their city at a 20-year low. Perhaps they also resent this imposition of House judgment because District residents, through their elected leaders, are authorized under the Home Rule Act to make their own laws. But perhaps they are outraged most of all because they have no vote in Congress. At the very time that the House was telling Americans living in the District what their local laws should be, Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D), the District's representative on Capitol Hill, had to stand by and watch -- unable to express her views with a vote.
We hope opponents of the House action are successful in stopping the repeal in the Senate. Clearly the last thing D.C. police need is another obstacle to charging negligent gun owners with gun safety violations or more cases of children dying from playing with guns. The notion of Congress encouraging citizens in the nation's capital to keep loaded and unprotected guns in their homes borders on insanity. Ironically, this quashing of self-determination is taking place under the eyes of the 55-nation parliamentary assembly of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, which is conducting its annual meeting in the city. On Saturday a committee of the group overwhelmingly supported a resolution calling for equal voting rights for D.C. residents. The plight of the voteless District is plain for the world to see.
Full Version: Guns Over Democracy
Common Ground Common Sense > Issues that Affect Our Lives > Second Amendment, Gun Safety and Gun Control > Second Amendment, Gun Safety and Gun Control Archive
As someone who was against assault weapons, I have altered my opinion 180 degrees, America's democracy may very well depend on it's citizens being able to protect themselves from the current administration. It's gotten steadily uglier in America for queers, and I for one feel MUCH SAFER ARMED!
The BOR was intended to protect individuals from the excesses of government, and the excesses of democracy.
It does not matter where tyranny comes from, whether by popular demand, or fiat, it is still tyranny.
Any one of us may be tomorrows minority, I, for one, am pleased to have the BOR protecting me.
We don't know for sure if DC will now fall apart. It could be that some of you will be surprised. I am optimistic that the citizens of DC will, for the most part, prove able to act as responsible and decent people, just as most of us do now.
It does not matter where tyranny comes from, whether by popular demand, or fiat, it is still tyranny.
Any one of us may be tomorrows minority, I, for one, am pleased to have the BOR protecting me.
We don't know for sure if DC will now fall apart. It could be that some of you will be surprised. I am optimistic that the citizens of DC will, for the most part, prove able to act as responsible and decent people, just as most of us do now.
An excerpt from the article:
Did the strict gun laws have anything to do with the decline? I beleive the crime rate has been dropping all across the nation and it doesn't matter if there are strict gun laws on the books or not.
QUOTE
Perhaps District residents support their gun safety laws because they now see crime in their city at a 20-year low.
Did the strict gun laws have anything to do with the decline? I beleive the crime rate has been dropping all across the nation and it doesn't matter if there are strict gun laws on the books or not.
I am tired of this argument, all it does is stand in the way of issues that I really need to make my life better, and give me hope for my grandsons future.
How the hell you can continue to claim to be "progessive", while supporting exactly the opposite, is sure as hell beyond me!
Democracy means convincing a majority to vote your way. You, We, ain't ever succeded, have we now?
How the hell you can continue to claim to be "progessive", while supporting exactly the opposite, is sure as hell beyond me!
Democracy means convincing a majority to vote your way. You, We, ain't ever succeded, have we now?
Something the anti-gun people can chew on is this.
In 1776 had firearms been prohibited from private hands the experiment started on 4 July, 1776 in the City of Philadelphia would have died a quick death.
Without firearms in the hands of the citizenry we could not and would not be having any of these discussions.
Guns over democracy? Seems to me both are needed for the other.
In 1776 had firearms been prohibited from private hands the experiment started on 4 July, 1776 in the City of Philadelphia would have died a quick death.
Without firearms in the hands of the citizenry we could not and would not be having any of these discussions.
Guns over democracy? Seems to me both are needed for the other.
D.C. crime is at a "20 year low," but the near-total gun ban was enacted in 1976. That's 29 years ago. Which means that today's D.C. crime rate is HIGHER than it was before the right of homeowners to keep an assembled firearm IN THEIR OWN HOME was taken away.
For most of the country, crime rates are lower now than they were in '76. And of course D.C. has one of the highest homicide rates in the country; I guess D.C. criminals have either perfected the art of murdering people with unloaded, disassembled guns, or else the only people obeying the law are the law-abiding homeowners...
Acebass, if you feel it is a travesty for Congress to overrule a D.C. law, even though Congress is granted direct authority over D.C. by the Constitution, how do you feel about the way Congress overrode the FLORIDA legislature in 1994 when they passed the AWB? Florida had considered and rejected such a ban by a decisive margin.
Is it also fair to say that you support even D.C.'s gun laws?
For most of the country, crime rates are lower now than they were in '76. And of course D.C. has one of the highest homicide rates in the country; I guess D.C. criminals have either perfected the art of murdering people with unloaded, disassembled guns, or else the only people obeying the law are the law-abiding homeowners...
Acebass, if you feel it is a travesty for Congress to overrule a D.C. law, even though Congress is granted direct authority over D.C. by the Constitution, how do you feel about the way Congress overrode the FLORIDA legislature in 1994 when they passed the AWB? Florida had considered and rejected such a ban by a decisive margin.
Is it also fair to say that you support even D.C.'s gun laws?
QUOTE(benEzra @ Jul 6 2005, 12:14 PM)
D.C. crime is at a "20 year low," but the near-total gun ban was enacted in 1976. That's 29 years ago. Which means that today's D.C. crime rate is HIGHER than it was before the right of homeowners to keep an assembled firearm IN THEIR OWN HOME was taken away.
For most of the country, crime rates are lower now than they were in '76. And of course D.C. has one of the highest homicide rates in the country; I guess D.C. criminals have either perfected the art of murdering people with unloaded, disassembled guns, or else the only people obeying the law are the law-abiding homeowners...
Acebass, if you feel it is a travesty for Congress to overrule a D.C. law, even though Congress is granted direct authority over D.C. by the Constitution, how do you feel about the way Congress overrode the FLORIDA legislature in 1994 when they passed the AWB? Florida had considered and rejected such a ban by a decisive margin.
Is it also fair to say that you support even D.C.'s gun laws?
For most of the country, crime rates are lower now than they were in '76. And of course D.C. has one of the highest homicide rates in the country; I guess D.C. criminals have either perfected the art of murdering people with unloaded, disassembled guns, or else the only people obeying the law are the law-abiding homeowners...
Acebass, if you feel it is a travesty for Congress to overrule a D.C. law, even though Congress is granted direct authority over D.C. by the Constitution, how do you feel about the way Congress overrode the FLORIDA legislature in 1994 when they passed the AWB? Florida had considered and rejected such a ban by a decisive margin.
Is it also fair to say that you support even D.C.'s gun laws?
No. It is fair to say that while reading the Washington Post I came across this article, and thought it of interest. That is what is fair to say. Since I don't live in the DC area I have no idea if what they are saying is true but since they live there I will take them at their word.
I prefer to deal in facts that I myself am sure of. Conjecture doesn't interest me.
Haven't "WE" lost enough times, or do you insist on trying one more time?
Frankly, I am tired of it.
My kids and grandkids need things, if your hangups get in the way, excuse me!
I am done with voting for the "lessor of evils", I just want a shot at making one positive choice, before I die!
This whole thread pits democracy against the Constitution, the last damned hope we have.
If we didn't have the Constitution, you would be protesting with a gun barrel up beside your head.
With all due respect, more than a few of you are crazy as "expletive deleted", how long am I expected to tote you on my back?
Insanity is repeating the same behavior, over, and over, while expecting different results, each time.
Goodnight!
Frankly, I am tired of it.
My kids and grandkids need things, if your hangups get in the way, excuse me!
I am done with voting for the "lessor of evils", I just want a shot at making one positive choice, before I die!
This whole thread pits democracy against the Constitution, the last damned hope we have.
If we didn't have the Constitution, you would be protesting with a gun barrel up beside your head.
With all due respect, more than a few of you are crazy as "expletive deleted", how long am I expected to tote you on my back?
Insanity is repeating the same behavior, over, and over, while expecting different results, each time.
Goodnight!
Senate Moves to Shield Gun Industry
Updated 2:17 PM ET July 26, 2005
http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pr...8bj7smo0&src=ap
By LAURIE KELLMAN
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Senate on Tuesday put off until fall completing a $491 billion defense bill to act this week on the National Rifle Association's top priority: shielding gun manufacturers and dealers from liability suits stemming from gun crimes.
On a 66-32 test vote, the Senate indicated there's plenty of support for Republican leaders' determination to pass the gun bill before lawmakers leave at the end of this week for a monthlong vacation.
"The only reason it is coming to the floor, in a time of war to interrupt the debate on the Defense Authorization bill is that members are feeling pressure form the gun lobby," said Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I.
Congress was on the way to passing the bill last year when the NRA abruptly asked its chief sponsor, Sen. Larry Craig, R-, R-Idaho, to withdraw it after gun opponents succeeded in amending it to extend an expiring ban on assault weapons. A pickup of four GOP Senate seats in last November's election emboldened gun rights supporters to try again, confident they can block reimposing restrictions on assault-type weapons.
The bill would prohibit lawsuits against the firearms industry for damages resulting form the unlawful use of a firearm or ammunition. Craig, a member of the NRA's board of directors, said such lawsuits are "predatory and aimed at bankrupting the firearms industry." Such lawsuits unfairly blame dealers and manufacturers for the crimes of gun users, he added.
Gun makers and dealers still would be subject to product liability, negligence or breach of contract suits under the bill, Craig said.
Gun opponents say the bill effectively exempts from liability gunmakers and that dealers allow the weapons to get into the hands of people the law says shouldn't have them. If the bill had been law when six victims of Washington, D.C. snipers John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo sued the gun dealer from which they obtained their rifle, the dealer would not have agreed to pay the families and victims $2.5 million, say opponents of the bill.
The Republican-controlled House passed a similar bill in 2004 but has taken no action on the issue this year.
Democrats and Republicans alike court the powerful NRA at election time, and the bill has garnered bipartisan support. But the gun industry still gave 88 percent of its campaign contributions, or $1.2 million to Republicans in the 2004 election cycle. Gun control advocates, meanwhile, gave 98 percent of their contributions, or $93,700, to Democrats that cycle, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.
___
The bill is S. 397.
___
On the Net:
Senate: http://www.senate.gov
National Rifle Association: http://www.nra.org
Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence: http://www.bradycenter.org
Center for Responsive Politics: http://www.opensecrets.org
Updated 2:17 PM ET July 26, 2005
http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pr...8bj7smo0&src=ap
By LAURIE KELLMAN
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Senate on Tuesday put off until fall completing a $491 billion defense bill to act this week on the National Rifle Association's top priority: shielding gun manufacturers and dealers from liability suits stemming from gun crimes.
On a 66-32 test vote, the Senate indicated there's plenty of support for Republican leaders' determination to pass the gun bill before lawmakers leave at the end of this week for a monthlong vacation.
"The only reason it is coming to the floor, in a time of war to interrupt the debate on the Defense Authorization bill is that members are feeling pressure form the gun lobby," said Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I.
Congress was on the way to passing the bill last year when the NRA abruptly asked its chief sponsor, Sen. Larry Craig, R-, R-Idaho, to withdraw it after gun opponents succeeded in amending it to extend an expiring ban on assault weapons. A pickup of four GOP Senate seats in last November's election emboldened gun rights supporters to try again, confident they can block reimposing restrictions on assault-type weapons.
The bill would prohibit lawsuits against the firearms industry for damages resulting form the unlawful use of a firearm or ammunition. Craig, a member of the NRA's board of directors, said such lawsuits are "predatory and aimed at bankrupting the firearms industry." Such lawsuits unfairly blame dealers and manufacturers for the crimes of gun users, he added.
Gun makers and dealers still would be subject to product liability, negligence or breach of contract suits under the bill, Craig said.
Gun opponents say the bill effectively exempts from liability gunmakers and that dealers allow the weapons to get into the hands of people the law says shouldn't have them. If the bill had been law when six victims of Washington, D.C. snipers John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo sued the gun dealer from which they obtained their rifle, the dealer would not have agreed to pay the families and victims $2.5 million, say opponents of the bill.
The Republican-controlled House passed a similar bill in 2004 but has taken no action on the issue this year.
Democrats and Republicans alike court the powerful NRA at election time, and the bill has garnered bipartisan support. But the gun industry still gave 88 percent of its campaign contributions, or $1.2 million to Republicans in the 2004 election cycle. Gun control advocates, meanwhile, gave 98 percent of their contributions, or $93,700, to Democrats that cycle, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.
___
The bill is S. 397.
___
On the Net:
Senate: http://www.senate.gov
National Rifle Association: http://www.nra.org
Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence: http://www.bradycenter.org
Center for Responsive Politics: http://www.opensecrets.org
Frist Delays Showdown With White House
Updated 6:32 PM ET July 26, 2005
http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pr...26_1851&src=abc
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist on Tuesday delayed potential showdowns with the White House over terrorism detainees and closing U.S. military bases after the Republican-run chamber failed to sidetrack amendments on the two contentious issues.
The Tennessee Republican's decision to put off until fall further consideration of the amendments and the $491 billion defense bill they were aimed at came after the Senate voted 50-48 to cut off debate on the overall measure. That was short of the 60 votes Frist and the White House needed to prevail.
Under the Senate's rules, a vote to limit debate would have automatically killed the terror-suspect and base-closing amendments. The White House has threatened that President Bush would veto the entire defense bill if the amendments were included in it.
"I'm very disappointed in the last vote," Frist said on the Senate floor. "We will proceed to the bill on gun liability," the next bill on the Senate's schedule.
That provoked outcries from Democrats who accused Frist of pandering to special interests by shelving the defense bill to work on a National Rifle Association-backed bill that would shield gun manufacturers from liability lawsuits......
Updated 6:32 PM ET July 26, 2005
http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pr...26_1851&src=abc
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist on Tuesday delayed potential showdowns with the White House over terrorism detainees and closing U.S. military bases after the Republican-run chamber failed to sidetrack amendments on the two contentious issues.
The Tennessee Republican's decision to put off until fall further consideration of the amendments and the $491 billion defense bill they were aimed at came after the Senate voted 50-48 to cut off debate on the overall measure. That was short of the 60 votes Frist and the White House needed to prevail.
Under the Senate's rules, a vote to limit debate would have automatically killed the terror-suspect and base-closing amendments. The White House has threatened that President Bush would veto the entire defense bill if the amendments were included in it.
"I'm very disappointed in the last vote," Frist said on the Senate floor. "We will proceed to the bill on gun liability," the next bill on the Senate's schedule.
That provoked outcries from Democrats who accused Frist of pandering to special interests by shelving the defense bill to work on a National Rifle Association-backed bill that would shield gun manufacturers from liability lawsuits......
The final vote on the gun bill is on now at C-span 2.
The republicans defeated all of the democrat amendments including one against cop-killer bullets that pierce armor. Many democrats voted against the democrat amendments.
It looks like the bill will pass.
We really need to change the congress in 2006.
The republicans defeated all of the democrat amendments including one against cop-killer bullets that pierce armor. Many democrats voted against the democrat amendments.
It looks like the bill will pass.
We really need to change the congress in 2006.
Too many democrats voted for this bill. It will get more than 60 votes.
Final vote on S.397 65 yes 31 no
9-10 democrats voted for this bill
9-10 democrats voted for this bill
no such thing as a Cop Killer Bullet...This is Kennedy's falsehood.
The bullet goes through the cop's bullet-proof vests. Thus they call it a cop-killer bullet. They gave lots of real-life examples today and even showed how terrorists and anyone elese can buy them on E-bay. The FBI has reported Alqaeda documents that tell their followers how to get their weapons from U.S. gun dealers.
-------------------------
While the senate did this crap today to reduce liability of gun show promoters --- Illinois did this:
Ill. Gov. Signs Gun Show Loophole Closure
Updated 4:12 PM ET July 29, 2005
http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pr...8bl8r8g4&src=ap
CHICAGO (AP) - Gov. Rod Blagojevich signed into law Friday a measure that requires background checks on potential firearms buyers at gun shows, closing a loophole that police and others contend has been exploited by gangs and other illegal buyers.
Background checks are already required for people buying guns at licensed stores to ensure they don't have a criminal record that would bar them from possessing firearms.
The new law, which applies to unlicensed dealers, has long been sought by gun control advocates, police and even many gun owners.
"We finally can celebrate the passage of a bill that is all about common sense," Blagojevich said.
Illinois ranks in the top 10 among states in the number of gun shows per year, State Police Director Larry Trent said.
The law, which takes effect immediately, requires gun sellers to ask state police for backgrounds on potential purchasers. If the buyer is approved, the sale must take place within 30 days.
-------------------------
While the senate did this crap today to reduce liability of gun show promoters --- Illinois did this:
Ill. Gov. Signs Gun Show Loophole Closure
Updated 4:12 PM ET July 29, 2005
http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pr...8bl8r8g4&src=ap
CHICAGO (AP) - Gov. Rod Blagojevich signed into law Friday a measure that requires background checks on potential firearms buyers at gun shows, closing a loophole that police and others contend has been exploited by gangs and other illegal buyers.
Background checks are already required for people buying guns at licensed stores to ensure they don't have a criminal record that would bar them from possessing firearms.
The new law, which applies to unlicensed dealers, has long been sought by gun control advocates, police and even many gun owners.
"We finally can celebrate the passage of a bill that is all about common sense," Blagojevich said.
Illinois ranks in the top 10 among states in the number of gun shows per year, State Police Director Larry Trent said.
The law, which takes effect immediately, requires gun sellers to ask state police for backgrounds on potential purchasers. If the buyer is approved, the sale must take place within 30 days.
Any rifle Hunting bullet on the market today will penatrate a standard vest designed for the handgun bullet. The common 30/30 will do this.
News from earlier today:
Senate Debates Exceptions to Gun Bill
Updated 1:41 PM ET July 29, 2005
http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pr...8bl6kk0o&src=ap
By LAURIE KELLMAN
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Senate debated on Friday whether children and police should retain the right to sue under a bill designed to shield the firearms industry from most lawsuits resulting from criminal shootings.
Supporters say the liability legislation, sponsored by Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, and backed by the National Rifle Association, is necessary to shield the gun industry from giant, court-ordered damages that could bankrupt it.
Opponents of Craig's bill say no industry should have that kind of legal protection, least of all one that makes and distributes weapons.
"This bill is really a travesty," said Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I. "It's about power, the power of the NRA to dictate legislation."
Republican Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., agreed late Thursday to allow debate on amendments to the measure Friday. One, sponsored by Sen. Jon Corzine, D-N.J., would make police officers exceptions to the bill's restrictions, allowing them to sue. Another, sponsored by Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., would do the same for children.
Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., introduced an amendment that would ban hollow-tipped, "cop killer" bullets. Another, sponsored by Reed, would allow individuals, but not municipalities, to file such lawsuits.
The agreement to allow debate on amendments solved a major standoff over the bill, which died last year when Democrats succeeded in attaching an amendment that would have extended an expiring assault weapons ban. At the NRA's request, the bill never had a final vote.
Frist revived it this week by delaying until the fall final action on a defense bill the Senate was debating. He then used parliamentary maneuvers to prevent Democrats from getting votes on amendments objectionable to the NRA. The House passed a similar bill last year but has taken no action on it this year.
Earlier Thursday, the Senate rejected an argument that gun makers and others should be held liable if they irresponsibly allow a criminal to obtain a weapon and use it to kill or wound.
"We should not protect those folks from their own reckless conduct, their own negligence," said Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.
Levin's amendment to allow some suits by victims of gun crimes failed 62-37. The bill's supporters said the proposal would undermine the purpose of their legislation: keeping the gun industry out of financial peril from damage suits.
"What this is all about is trying to drive gun manufacturers out of business," said Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas.
Democrats did succeed in adding an amendment to require child safety locks to be purchased with every handgun, except those bought by government officials and police officers.
[I believe that all other democrat amendments failed]
Any violation could be punished by the suspension of the dealer's license, a $10,000 fine or both.
___
On the Net:
Information on the legislation, S. 397, can be found at http://thomas.loc.gov/
National Rifle Association: http://www.nra.org
Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence: http://www.bradycenter.org
Senate Debates Exceptions to Gun Bill
Updated 1:41 PM ET July 29, 2005
http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pr...8bl6kk0o&src=ap
By LAURIE KELLMAN
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Senate debated on Friday whether children and police should retain the right to sue under a bill designed to shield the firearms industry from most lawsuits resulting from criminal shootings.
Supporters say the liability legislation, sponsored by Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, and backed by the National Rifle Association, is necessary to shield the gun industry from giant, court-ordered damages that could bankrupt it.
Opponents of Craig's bill say no industry should have that kind of legal protection, least of all one that makes and distributes weapons.
"This bill is really a travesty," said Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I. "It's about power, the power of the NRA to dictate legislation."
Republican Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., agreed late Thursday to allow debate on amendments to the measure Friday. One, sponsored by Sen. Jon Corzine, D-N.J., would make police officers exceptions to the bill's restrictions, allowing them to sue. Another, sponsored by Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., would do the same for children.
Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., introduced an amendment that would ban hollow-tipped, "cop killer" bullets. Another, sponsored by Reed, would allow individuals, but not municipalities, to file such lawsuits.
The agreement to allow debate on amendments solved a major standoff over the bill, which died last year when Democrats succeeded in attaching an amendment that would have extended an expiring assault weapons ban. At the NRA's request, the bill never had a final vote.
Frist revived it this week by delaying until the fall final action on a defense bill the Senate was debating. He then used parliamentary maneuvers to prevent Democrats from getting votes on amendments objectionable to the NRA. The House passed a similar bill last year but has taken no action on it this year.
Earlier Thursday, the Senate rejected an argument that gun makers and others should be held liable if they irresponsibly allow a criminal to obtain a weapon and use it to kill or wound.
"We should not protect those folks from their own reckless conduct, their own negligence," said Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.
Levin's amendment to allow some suits by victims of gun crimes failed 62-37. The bill's supporters said the proposal would undermine the purpose of their legislation: keeping the gun industry out of financial peril from damage suits.
"What this is all about is trying to drive gun manufacturers out of business," said Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas.
Democrats did succeed in adding an amendment to require child safety locks to be purchased with every handgun, except those bought by government officials and police officers.
[I believe that all other democrat amendments failed]
Any violation could be punished by the suspension of the dealer's license, a $10,000 fine or both.
___
On the Net:
Information on the legislation, S. 397, can be found at http://thomas.loc.gov/
National Rifle Association: http://www.nra.org
Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence: http://www.bradycenter.org
Read and educate yourself heritage..."Cop-killer" Bullets By Mike Casey
"The bullet goes through the cop's bullet-proof vests. Thus they call it a cop-killer bullet. They gave lots of real-life examples today and even showed how terrorists and anyone elese can buy them on E-bay".
================================
I've owned guns for over 50 years, and reloaded ammunition almost that long, and I've never seen one of these mythical bullets. Would you care to be specific, or will you just continue to parrot stuff you've heard, about things you do not understand?
================================
I've owned guns for over 50 years, and reloaded ammunition almost that long, and I've never seen one of these mythical bullets. Would you care to be specific, or will you just continue to parrot stuff you've heard, about things you do not understand?
I believe that the evidence provided in the senate was that the cop-killer bullets are made of titanium, not teflon coated brass. They also provided lots of current evidence that cops and FBI agents have been killed with these bullets.
From your source:
"In the 1970's, Kopsch, Turcos and Ward produced their "KTW" handgun ammunition using steel cored bullets capable of great penetration. Following further experimentation, in 1981 they began producing bullets constructed primarily of brass. The hard brass bullets caused exceptional wear on handgun barrels, a problem combated by coating the bullets with Teflon. The Teflon coating did nothing to improve penetration, it simply reduced damage to the gun barrel.
Despite the facts that "KTW" ammunition had never been available to the general public and that no police officer has ever been killed by a handgun bullet penetrating their body armor, the media incorrectly reported that the Teflon coated bullets were designed to defeat the body armor that law enforcement officers were beginning to use. The myth of "Cop-killer" bullets was born. "...
"Here are the facts:
- "Armor piercing" ammunition is only legally available to law enforcement agencies and to the armed forces."
Obviously, if Ebay is selling them, then these bullets are not limited to these people.
It appears that that reference is outdated.
From your source:
"In the 1970's, Kopsch, Turcos and Ward produced their "KTW" handgun ammunition using steel cored bullets capable of great penetration. Following further experimentation, in 1981 they began producing bullets constructed primarily of brass. The hard brass bullets caused exceptional wear on handgun barrels, a problem combated by coating the bullets with Teflon. The Teflon coating did nothing to improve penetration, it simply reduced damage to the gun barrel.
Despite the facts that "KTW" ammunition had never been available to the general public and that no police officer has ever been killed by a handgun bullet penetrating their body armor, the media incorrectly reported that the Teflon coated bullets were designed to defeat the body armor that law enforcement officers were beginning to use. The myth of "Cop-killer" bullets was born. "...
"Here are the facts:
- "Armor piercing" ammunition is only legally available to law enforcement agencies and to the armed forces."
Obviously, if Ebay is selling them, then these bullets are not limited to these people.
It appears that that reference is outdated.
News from earlier today:
Senate Debates Bill to Shield Gun Industry
Updated 3:22 PM ET July 29, 2005
http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pr...8bl84007&src=ap
By LAURIE KELLMAN
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Senate debated Friday whether to shield firearms manufacturers, dealers and importers from lawsuits brought by victims of gun crimes, a measure opponents said had been ordered up by the gun lobby.
Supporters said the industry needed protection from financial disaster caused by damage lawsuits. Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, who sponsored the legislation, said, "This bill says go after the criminal, don't go after the law-abiding gun manufacturer or the law-abiding gun seller."
But Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., said, "This bill has one motivation _ payback by the Bush administration and the Republican leadership of the Congress to the powerful special interest of the National Rifle Association."
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., yanked similar legislation from debate last year when Democrats successfully attached an extension of the ban on assault-style weapons and the NRA dropped its support.
Republicans picked up four more Senate seats in last November's election, emboldening gun rights supporters to try again.
Democrats won inclusion this year of a new requirement that each handgun be sold with a separate child safety or locking device, unless purchased by government officials or police officers. Any violation could be punished by the suspension of a dealer's license, a $10,000 fine, or both.
Craig said the bill does not block gunmakers and dealers from facing product liability, negligence or breach of contract suits.
Its opponents say the bill effectively exempts gun manufacturers from liability. They also say dealers sometimes let weapons get into the hands of people the law says shouldn't have them.
Democrats sought to insert special provisions in the legislation letting children and police retain the right to sue.
"Should those whose actions lead to the death or injury of a child get a free pass?" asked Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., who sponsored one amendment.
Senators brushed aside the amendment pertaining to children, arguing it would effectively gut the bill. Another amendment, sponsored by Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I., would allow individuals, but not municipalities, to file such lawsuits.
Kennedy introduced an amendment that would ban hollow-tipped so-called "cop killer" bullets. The gun industry gave 88 percent of its campaign contributions, or $1.2 million, to Republicans in the 2004 election cycle. Gun control advocates, meanwhile, gave 98 percent of their contributions, or $93,700, to Democrats during that election, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.
Senate Debates Bill to Shield Gun Industry
Updated 3:22 PM ET July 29, 2005
http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pr...8bl84007&src=ap
By LAURIE KELLMAN
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Senate debated Friday whether to shield firearms manufacturers, dealers and importers from lawsuits brought by victims of gun crimes, a measure opponents said had been ordered up by the gun lobby.
Supporters said the industry needed protection from financial disaster caused by damage lawsuits. Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, who sponsored the legislation, said, "This bill says go after the criminal, don't go after the law-abiding gun manufacturer or the law-abiding gun seller."
But Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., said, "This bill has one motivation _ payback by the Bush administration and the Republican leadership of the Congress to the powerful special interest of the National Rifle Association."
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., yanked similar legislation from debate last year when Democrats successfully attached an extension of the ban on assault-style weapons and the NRA dropped its support.
Republicans picked up four more Senate seats in last November's election, emboldening gun rights supporters to try again.
Democrats won inclusion this year of a new requirement that each handgun be sold with a separate child safety or locking device, unless purchased by government officials or police officers. Any violation could be punished by the suspension of a dealer's license, a $10,000 fine, or both.
Craig said the bill does not block gunmakers and dealers from facing product liability, negligence or breach of contract suits.
Its opponents say the bill effectively exempts gun manufacturers from liability. They also say dealers sometimes let weapons get into the hands of people the law says shouldn't have them.
Democrats sought to insert special provisions in the legislation letting children and police retain the right to sue.
"Should those whose actions lead to the death or injury of a child get a free pass?" asked Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., who sponsored one amendment.
Senators brushed aside the amendment pertaining to children, arguing it would effectively gut the bill. Another amendment, sponsored by Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I., would allow individuals, but not municipalities, to file such lawsuits.
Kennedy introduced an amendment that would ban hollow-tipped so-called "cop killer" bullets. The gun industry gave 88 percent of its campaign contributions, or $1.2 million, to Republicans in the 2004 election cycle. Gun control advocates, meanwhile, gave 98 percent of their contributions, or $93,700, to Democrats during that election, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.
QUOTE(heritage @ Jul 29 2005, 05:02 PM)
I believe that the evidence provided in the senate was that the cop-killer bullets are made of titanium, not teflon coated brass. They also provided lots of current evidence that cops and FBI agents have been killed with these bullets.
From your source:
"In the 1970's, Kopsch, Turcos and Ward produced their "KTW" handgun ammunition using steel cored bullets capable of great penetration. Following further experimentation, in 1981 they began producing bullets constructed primarily of brass. The hard brass bullets caused exceptional wear on handgun barrels, a problem combated by coating the bullets with Teflon. The Teflon coating did nothing to improve penetration, it simply reduced damage to the gun barrel.
Despite the facts that "KTW" ammunition had never been available to the general public and that no police officer has ever been killed by a handgun bullet penetrating their body armor, the media incorrectly reported that the Teflon coated bullets were designed to defeat the body armor that law enforcement officers were beginning to use. The myth of "Cop-killer" bullets was born. "...
"Here are the facts:
- "Armor piercing" ammunition is only legally available to law enforcement agencies and to the armed forces."
Obviously, if Ebay is selling them, then these bullets are not limited to these people.
It appears that that reference is outdated.
From your source:
"In the 1970's, Kopsch, Turcos and Ward produced their "KTW" handgun ammunition using steel cored bullets capable of great penetration. Following further experimentation, in 1981 they began producing bullets constructed primarily of brass. The hard brass bullets caused exceptional wear on handgun barrels, a problem combated by coating the bullets with Teflon. The Teflon coating did nothing to improve penetration, it simply reduced damage to the gun barrel.
Despite the facts that "KTW" ammunition had never been available to the general public and that no police officer has ever been killed by a handgun bullet penetrating their body armor, the media incorrectly reported that the Teflon coated bullets were designed to defeat the body armor that law enforcement officers were beginning to use. The myth of "Cop-killer" bullets was born. "...
"Here are the facts:
- "Armor piercing" ammunition is only legally available to law enforcement agencies and to the armed forces."
Obviously, if Ebay is selling them, then these bullets are not limited to these people.
It appears that that reference is outdated.
If you can find them on ebay, I'll give you a lolly-pop.
Senator Kennedy had a blown-up poster-size picture of the Ebay website/ad as a prop.
Sorry - but I didn't catch the item number.
Sorry - but I didn't catch the item number.
Ebay forbids the sale of loaded ammunition. They do allow components for reloaders. As for KTW bullets, there are none to be found in a search of Ebay.
I cast bullets for decades, had I wanted I could have used zinc, instead of lead alloy, and made some pretty hard bullets, but they would not be more likely to penetrate a bullet resistant vest.
This whole issue was created with deception in mind, counting on the sad fact that so many people are misinformed, uneducated, and to some degree phobic about firearms.
If you think you can prove a point with honest facts, fine with me, but your disdain for accuracy rubs off on me, and I don't like to be embarrassed. I also hate to lose elections.
All you need to do is go to Ebay, find some "cop killer" bullets, and post the link. I damned sure can't find any there.
I cast bullets for decades, had I wanted I could have used zinc, instead of lead alloy, and made some pretty hard bullets, but they would not be more likely to penetrate a bullet resistant vest.
This whole issue was created with deception in mind, counting on the sad fact that so many people are misinformed, uneducated, and to some degree phobic about firearms.
If you think you can prove a point with honest facts, fine with me, but your disdain for accuracy rubs off on me, and I don't like to be embarrassed. I also hate to lose elections.
All you need to do is go to Ebay, find some "cop killer" bullets, and post the link. I damned sure can't find any there.
You're wanting him to produce facts to back his claim? 
Hell!...Even Kennedy hasn't found anyone to buy his garbage. Except for the extreme anti-gun freakazoids.
Hell!...Even Kennedy hasn't found anyone to buy his garbage. Except for the extreme anti-gun freakazoids.
E-bay doesn't call the bullets "cop-killer bullets" in the ad.
The bullets are made with titanium shells. I did see that on the poster of the ad.
I don't read gun magazines or own a gun.
I am just repeating the evidence that came up today in the senate.
The bullets are made with titanium shells. I did see that on the poster of the ad.
I don't read gun magazines or own a gun.
I am just repeating the evidence that came up today in the senate.
I am 63, never missed an election in my life, but I am getting so embarrassed by some of the B.S. being put out that I may just stay home next election day. I want to win, because we have the best ideas, not because we sling the most crap.
Everyone should have had enough of that by now. I have.
Everyone should have had enough of that by now. I have.
I don't understand how you can call news and evidence "crap".
QUOTE(heritage @ Jul 29 2005, 05:52 PM)
I don't understand how you can call news and evidence "crap".
It is if you don't corroborate it yourself. Being a "Bobblehead" and buying into something just because a Senator said it is irresponsible, IMO.
I've been an activist on 2nd. Amendment rights for over 40 years, and I don't take anything at face value...and that includes the pro-gun side. Do your research and make up your own mind. Go with facts and not someone’s agenda.
I don't use Ebay but I found this ad in a few seconds:
These are not titanium, but they are military armor piercing bullets.
500 .223 - 5.56 STEEL ARMOR PIERCING BULLETS SS109
Seller information
r4fan ( 248)
Feedback Score: 248
Positive Feedback: 100%
Member since Sep-10-99 in United States
[quote] This auction is for 500 (five-hundred) U.S.G.I. steel penetrator, armor piercing bullets, from 5.56 SS109 (M855) ammunition. These are 62 grain bullets with a hardened steel core, and currently used by our U.S. military. These bullets may have been pulled from live M855 ammunition, but I'm not sure. If they were, I can't find any marks or cosmetic flaws on the copper outer casing. These bullets are in excellent condition and are great for reloading in any .22 caliber centerfire rifle. These bullets are clean and don't have any green paint on them, and are not coated with any kind of residue. They are ready to load! [unquote]
[quote] Here is some more info on the SS109 bullet:
Q. What is SS-109? Is it the same as M855?
SS-109 is Fabrique Nationale's (FN's) name for their 61.5 grain bullet with the steel penetrator in the nose and what they call rounds loaded with this bullet. (FN calls M193-type ammo "SS-92.") The US military's M855 round is loaded with the SS-109 bullet, though the US military has additional specifications that ammo must meet before it can be called M855. So, while all M855 is loaded with SS-109 bullets, all "SS-109 ammo" will not meet the M855 specs. For example, the British purposely underloaded some lots of their ammo in an effort to get their L85A1 (SA80) rifles to cycle properly. The ammo is still loaded with SS-109 bullets and labeled as SS-109, but it is nowhere near the M855 velocity specifications.
Q. Why did the US Military adopt M855 for the M16?
M855 and M856 are newer rounds developed in the late 1970s by Fabrique Nationale (FN) of Belgium. FN was developing a new 5.56mm belt-fed machine gun they called the "Minimi" (Mini-Machinegun) for entry into the US military's Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) program. The SAW was to augment, and in many cases replace, the 7.62×51mm M60 made by Saco Defense (now part of the General Dynamics Armament Division). Because there was a lot of resistance to giving up larger, longer-range round of the M60, FN focused on making the SAW perform better at longer ranges than existing 5.56 platforms (i.e., the M16). They did this primarily by developing new bullets: the SS-109 "ball" round and the L-110 tracer.
The SS-109 bullet uses a "compound" core, with a lead base topped by a steel penetrator, all covered in a gilding-metal (copper alloy) jacket. The L-110 tracer bullet has a copper-plated steel jacket and like all tracer bullets, is hollowed out at the base and filled with tracing compound. Both bullets are much longer in length than the earlier 55gr bullets, especially the L-110 tracer, which was designed to trace out to 800m, verses 450m for the older M196 tracer round. Due to their increased length, these bullets require a faster rifling twist to be properly stabilized. The military settled on a twist rate of 1:7, which is a compromise between the 1:9 twist ideal for SS-109 bullets and the 1:6 twist ideal for L-110 tracers.
Remember, the goal of these new bullets was improving long range performance. For example, the SS-109 bullet was proven to have better penetration of the then-current-issue steel helmet at 600m than the M80 "ball" ammo fired by the M60. The M80 ammo was not able to penetrate both sides of the helmet at that distance; the SS-109 bullet could. The L-110 tracers provided a visible trace out to 800m, which was seen as the maximum effective range of the SAW. These improvements in long-range performance satisfied the military and the US ultimately adopted the Minimi as the M249 SAW. They also adopted the new FN bullets and the US specs for the loaded rounds are called M855 and M856.
About the time the SAW was adopted, the M16 "A2 revision" program was underway and it was decided to adopt the new SAW ammo (and its rifling twist) for the M16A2. As older M16A1 1:12 twist barrels were not able to stabilize the longer bullets, the new bullets had to be marked (in countries with older 1:12 rifles) in order to make sure that the new ammo wasn't used in the older rifles. M855 received green painted tips and M856 received orange. M193 is plain and M196 is red.
Q. Is all SS-109/M855 ammo marked with green bullet tips? No.
Countries that previously issued 5.56mm rifles with a 1:12 barrel twist will mark their SS-109/M855 ammo with (usually) green bullet tips, to prevent the ammo from being accidentally fired in the older 1:12 rifles. Also, countries that regularly supply other countries with older 1:12 rifles usually mark their bullets for the same reason. Countries that didn't adopt 5.56mm rifles until the NATO SS-109 standard was adopted usually don't mark their ammo with green tips, as they don't have any old 1:12 rifles to be concerned with. Note that many other countries that now use 5.56 weapons were still using 7.62mm rifles until recently and never used any other ammunition than the SS-109/M855 and L-110/M856, so they don't mark their bullets with green or orange paint unless they intend to sell it to countries who require these markings (the US, Germany, and Belgium, primarily). They also typically refer to their rounds by the FN bullet name. [unquote]
These are not titanium, but they are military armor piercing bullets.
500 .223 - 5.56 STEEL ARMOR PIERCING BULLETS SS109
Seller information
r4fan ( 248)
Feedback Score: 248
Positive Feedback: 100%
Member since Sep-10-99 in United States
[quote] This auction is for 500 (five-hundred) U.S.G.I. steel penetrator, armor piercing bullets, from 5.56 SS109 (M855) ammunition. These are 62 grain bullets with a hardened steel core, and currently used by our U.S. military. These bullets may have been pulled from live M855 ammunition, but I'm not sure. If they were, I can't find any marks or cosmetic flaws on the copper outer casing. These bullets are in excellent condition and are great for reloading in any .22 caliber centerfire rifle. These bullets are clean and don't have any green paint on them, and are not coated with any kind of residue. They are ready to load! [unquote]
[quote] Here is some more info on the SS109 bullet:
Q. What is SS-109? Is it the same as M855?
SS-109 is Fabrique Nationale's (FN's) name for their 61.5 grain bullet with the steel penetrator in the nose and what they call rounds loaded with this bullet. (FN calls M193-type ammo "SS-92.") The US military's M855 round is loaded with the SS-109 bullet, though the US military has additional specifications that ammo must meet before it can be called M855. So, while all M855 is loaded with SS-109 bullets, all "SS-109 ammo" will not meet the M855 specs. For example, the British purposely underloaded some lots of their ammo in an effort to get their L85A1 (SA80) rifles to cycle properly. The ammo is still loaded with SS-109 bullets and labeled as SS-109, but it is nowhere near the M855 velocity specifications.
Q. Why did the US Military adopt M855 for the M16?
M855 and M856 are newer rounds developed in the late 1970s by Fabrique Nationale (FN) of Belgium. FN was developing a new 5.56mm belt-fed machine gun they called the "Minimi" (Mini-Machinegun) for entry into the US military's Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) program. The SAW was to augment, and in many cases replace, the 7.62×51mm M60 made by Saco Defense (now part of the General Dynamics Armament Division). Because there was a lot of resistance to giving up larger, longer-range round of the M60, FN focused on making the SAW perform better at longer ranges than existing 5.56 platforms (i.e., the M16). They did this primarily by developing new bullets: the SS-109 "ball" round and the L-110 tracer.
The SS-109 bullet uses a "compound" core, with a lead base topped by a steel penetrator, all covered in a gilding-metal (copper alloy) jacket. The L-110 tracer bullet has a copper-plated steel jacket and like all tracer bullets, is hollowed out at the base and filled with tracing compound. Both bullets are much longer in length than the earlier 55gr bullets, especially the L-110 tracer, which was designed to trace out to 800m, verses 450m for the older M196 tracer round. Due to their increased length, these bullets require a faster rifling twist to be properly stabilized. The military settled on a twist rate of 1:7, which is a compromise between the 1:9 twist ideal for SS-109 bullets and the 1:6 twist ideal for L-110 tracers.
Remember, the goal of these new bullets was improving long range performance. For example, the SS-109 bullet was proven to have better penetration of the then-current-issue steel helmet at 600m than the M80 "ball" ammo fired by the M60. The M80 ammo was not able to penetrate both sides of the helmet at that distance; the SS-109 bullet could. The L-110 tracers provided a visible trace out to 800m, which was seen as the maximum effective range of the SAW. These improvements in long-range performance satisfied the military and the US ultimately adopted the Minimi as the M249 SAW. They also adopted the new FN bullets and the US specs for the loaded rounds are called M855 and M856.
About the time the SAW was adopted, the M16 "A2 revision" program was underway and it was decided to adopt the new SAW ammo (and its rifling twist) for the M16A2. As older M16A1 1:12 twist barrels were not able to stabilize the longer bullets, the new bullets had to be marked (in countries with older 1:12 rifles) in order to make sure that the new ammo wasn't used in the older rifles. M855 received green painted tips and M856 received orange. M193 is plain and M196 is red.
Q. Is all SS-109/M855 ammo marked with green bullet tips? No.
Countries that previously issued 5.56mm rifles with a 1:12 barrel twist will mark their SS-109/M855 ammo with (usually) green bullet tips, to prevent the ammo from being accidentally fired in the older 1:12 rifles. Also, countries that regularly supply other countries with older 1:12 rifles usually mark their bullets for the same reason. Countries that didn't adopt 5.56mm rifles until the NATO SS-109 standard was adopted usually don't mark their ammo with green tips, as they don't have any old 1:12 rifles to be concerned with. Note that many other countries that now use 5.56 weapons were still using 7.62mm rifles until recently and never used any other ammunition than the SS-109/M855 and L-110/M856, so they don't mark their bullets with green or orange paint unless they intend to sell it to countries who require these markings (the US, Germany, and Belgium, primarily). They also typically refer to their rounds by the FN bullet name. [unquote]
I found 3 more listings on Ebay for armor piercing bullets:
500 .223 - 5.56 STEEL ARMOR PIERCING BULLETS SS109 $50.00/$55.00
100ct.-LAKE CITY-.30 cal. A.P.-ARMOR PIERCING- -BULLETS $26.00
100 Green Tip 223, 5.56, 62gr Armor P n tracer bullets $10.00
100 .30 caliber, CAL ARMOR PIERCING, AP 147GR BULLET
500 .223 - 5.56 STEEL ARMOR PIERCING BULLETS SS109 $50.00/$55.00
100ct.-LAKE CITY-.30 cal. A.P.-ARMOR PIERCING- -BULLETS $26.00
100 Green Tip 223, 5.56, 62gr Armor P n tracer bullets $10.00
100 .30 caliber, CAL ARMOR PIERCING, AP 147GR BULLET
100ct.-LAKE CITY-.30 cal. A.P.-ARMOR PIERCING--BULLETS
Seller information
deuce45s ( 94)
Feedback Score: 94
Positive Feedback: 100%
Member since Feb-01-05 in United States
Up for auction here are 100, .30 cal. FMJ-BT ARMOR PIERCING bullets made by the LAKE CITY ARSENAL. These are new bullets as far as I can tell. They weigh 152 grains each and have dual cannelures (the lower one for .30-06 and the upper for .308 Win.). They have a solid steel bullet within the bullet. Not just a penetrater tip. These are the real deal. My supplier friend managed to finally get some .30 cal. A.P. and so I finally have some A.P. again after what's been a real long drought. A.P. has been really hard to get ahold of lately and I don't know if I will ever get anymore. Especially ones this nice (my friend made a great find)! One last thing, these do not have black painted tips (black tip bullets shown are just for demonstration). If that is important to you (for identification purposes) I recommend using a black Sharpie pen.
Seller information
deuce45s ( 94)
Feedback Score: 94
Positive Feedback: 100%
Member since Feb-01-05 in United States
Up for auction here are 100, .30 cal. FMJ-BT ARMOR PIERCING bullets made by the LAKE CITY ARSENAL. These are new bullets as far as I can tell. They weigh 152 grains each and have dual cannelures (the lower one for .30-06 and the upper for .308 Win.). They have a solid steel bullet within the bullet. Not just a penetrater tip. These are the real deal. My supplier friend managed to finally get some .30 cal. A.P. and so I finally have some A.P. again after what's been a real long drought. A.P. has been really hard to get ahold of lately and I don't know if I will ever get anymore. Especially ones this nice (my friend made a great find)! One last thing, these do not have black painted tips (black tip bullets shown are just for demonstration). If that is important to you (for identification purposes) I recommend using a black Sharpie pen.
100 Green Tip 223, 5.56, 62gr Armor P n tracer bullets
Seller information
ndmarlen ( 349)
Feedback Score: 349
Positive Feedback: 100%
Member since Jan-27-03 in United States
Up for bid are 100 Green tip AP, Armor Piercing, 62 gr. .223 caliber projectiles. These are for reloading. These can be used in any .22 cal. centerfire rifle from .22 hornet to .223, to .22-250, to .220 swift. Just be sure and use load data for 62 grain bullets! These are the same Projectiles currently in use in Iraq & Afghanistan from US M-16's & M-249's. These bullets have a hardened steel core and will penetrate 3/4" steel plate from a .223
The black sealant on the bottom half comes off with a rag & brake cleaner.
Do not bid if your shipping address is in a restricted location
Seller information
ndmarlen ( 349)
Feedback Score: 349
Positive Feedback: 100%
Member since Jan-27-03 in United States
Up for bid are 100 Green tip AP, Armor Piercing, 62 gr. .223 caliber projectiles. These are for reloading. These can be used in any .22 cal. centerfire rifle from .22 hornet to .223, to .22-250, to .220 swift. Just be sure and use load data for 62 grain bullets! These are the same Projectiles currently in use in Iraq & Afghanistan from US M-16's & M-249's. These bullets have a hardened steel core and will penetrate 3/4" steel plate from a .223
The black sealant on the bottom half comes off with a rag & brake cleaner.
Do not bid if your shipping address is in a restricted location
100 .30 caliber, CAL ARMOR PIERCING, AP 147GR BULLETS
Seller information
ndmarlen ( 349)
Feedback Score: 349
Positive Feedback: 100%
Member since Jan-27-03 in United States
Up for bid are 100 USGI .30 CALIBER AP Armor Piercing projectiles. These are for reloading. These can be used in any .30 caliber centerfire rifle (except 7.62x39 and .30 carbine)from .30-30 to .308 to .30-06 to .300 WIN MAG. Just be sure and use load data for 147 grain bullets! These bullets are longer than the standard USGI .30 M80 Ball round at 1.284" vs. 1.166". These bullets have a hardened steel core and will penetrate 3/4" steel plate from a .308 (7.62x51).
The black sealant on the bottom half comes off with a rag & brake cleaner.
Do not bid if your shipping address is in a restricted location
Seller information
ndmarlen ( 349)
Feedback Score: 349
Positive Feedback: 100%
Member since Jan-27-03 in United States
Up for bid are 100 USGI .30 CALIBER AP Armor Piercing projectiles. These are for reloading. These can be used in any .30 caliber centerfire rifle (except 7.62x39 and .30 carbine)from .30-30 to .308 to .30-06 to .300 WIN MAG. Just be sure and use load data for 147 grain bullets! These bullets are longer than the standard USGI .30 M80 Ball round at 1.284" vs. 1.166". These bullets have a hardened steel core and will penetrate 3/4" steel plate from a .308 (7.62x51).
The black sealant on the bottom half comes off with a rag & brake cleaner.
Do not bid if your shipping address is in a restricted location
Note!
100 Green Tip 223, 5.56, 62gr Armor P n tracer bullets
These are the same Projectiles currently in use in Iraq & Afghanistan from US M-16's & M-249's.
100 Green Tip 223, 5.56, 62gr Armor P n tracer bullets
These are the same Projectiles currently in use in Iraq & Afghanistan from US M-16's & M-249's.
This is from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms...
The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17):
"(
The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.
© The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."
[Secretary means Secretary of the Treasury, in reality determinations
are delegated to the Technology Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms (ATF)]
Note the following things from the definition:
1) The definition was changed as part of the 1994 Crime Bill (9/14/94),
primarily by the addition of "full jacketed" bullets intended to be used
in a handgun whose jacket is more than 25% of their weight. The previous
language is at the end of this article, for comparison purposes.
2) AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to "willfully"
transfer AP ammo.
From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above into
completed rounds does not constitute "making" AP ammo; making the
bullets themselves does.
3) USE - The bullet must be able to be used in a handgun. Rather than
construing this to mean regular handgun calibers, ATF construes this to
mean any caliber for which a handgun has been made, including handguns
in rifle calibers, like .308 Winchester, and 7.62x39, for purposes of
bullets covered by ((i). Thus bullets suitable for these calibers,
as well as other rifle calibers for which handguns have been made (at
least commercially made) which are constructed as described below would
or should be AP ammo.
However bullets that fall into the AP definition under ((ii), because
their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?)
must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a
handgun.
4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
of one or more of the listed metals, or be a full jacketed type bullet
with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight. Thus SS109/M855
.223 (5.56mm) bullets would not be covered, because their core is only partly
steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal, and bullets with
cores made partly out of lead are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that
SS109/M855 bullets are not covered.
5) Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.
6) Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.
ATF has listed the following rounds as AP ammo:
All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo.
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core.
German made 9mm Para with steel core.
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet.
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition.
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP.
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet.
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core.
7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.
ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:
5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo.
WHAT FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON AP AMMO?
If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
It is: ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10
FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for
destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo
are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD's and ammo
for DD's. The FFL's cost $1000 a year.
Like I said...This bullet will not perform any different than any other Centerfire hunting bullet made for a hunting rifle and shot at a standard police vest.
DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17):
"(
The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.
© The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."
[Secretary means Secretary of the Treasury, in reality determinations
are delegated to the Technology Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms (ATF)]
Note the following things from the definition:
1) The definition was changed as part of the 1994 Crime Bill (9/14/94),
primarily by the addition of "full jacketed" bullets intended to be used
in a handgun whose jacket is more than 25% of their weight. The previous
language is at the end of this article, for comparison purposes.
2) AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to "willfully"
transfer AP ammo.
From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above into
completed rounds does not constitute "making" AP ammo; making the
bullets themselves does.
3) USE - The bullet must be able to be used in a handgun. Rather than
construing this to mean regular handgun calibers, ATF construes this to
mean any caliber for which a handgun has been made, including handguns
in rifle calibers, like .308 Winchester, and 7.62x39, for purposes of
bullets covered by (
(i). Thus bullets suitable for these calibers, as well as other rifle calibers for which handguns have been made (at
least commercially made) which are constructed as described below would
or should be AP ammo.
However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (
(ii), because their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?)
must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a
handgun.
4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
of one or more of the listed metals, or be a full jacketed type bullet
with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight. Thus SS109/M855
.223 (5.56mm) bullets would not be covered, because their core is only partly
steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal, and bullets with
cores made partly out of lead are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that
SS109/M855 bullets are not covered.
5) Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.
6) Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.
ATF has listed the following rounds as AP ammo:
All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo.
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core.
German made 9mm Para with steel core.
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet.
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition.
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP.
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet.
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core.
7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.
ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:
5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo.
WHAT FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON AP AMMO?
If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
It is: ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10
FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for
destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo
are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD's and ammo
for DD's. The FFL's cost $1000 a year.
Like I said...This bullet will not perform any different than any other Centerfire hunting bullet made for a hunting rifle and shot at a standard police vest.
DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
These are rifle bullets designed to be fired at over 3000 feet per second. At that velocity a popscicle stick is likely to penetrate a bullet resistant vest.
There is no rifle projectile suitable for hunting medium to large animals that will not penetrate a standard LEO vest, when fired at rifle velocities. There is no such thing as a "bullet proof vest". There are only "bullet resistant vests".
These are only projectiles, the part that actually leaves the barrel. These are not assembled, complete, loaded rounds capable of being fired as is. How many home reloaders have you found loading ammo to hunt cops?
This issue is hype, baloney, B.S.
There is no rifle projectile suitable for hunting medium to large animals that will not penetrate a standard LEO vest, when fired at rifle velocities. There is no such thing as a "bullet proof vest". There are only "bullet resistant vests".
These are only projectiles, the part that actually leaves the barrel. These are not assembled, complete, loaded rounds capable of being fired as is. How many home reloaders have you found loading ammo to hunt cops?
This issue is hype, baloney, B.S.
Heritage,
KTW ammunition was banned in 1986, by a bipartisan bill the NRA helped author. It has been restricted to law enforcement and military only for the last 19 years. Full story here. It restricts ALL handgun ammunition constructed of hard materials (steel, titanium, hardened bronze) that would allow a bullet to penetrate a vest that would otherwise be proof against that caliber. The law also restricts armor-piercing rifle ammunition in .223/5.56mm, 7.62x39mm, and .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm.
Practically ALL rifle ammunition will penetrate police body armor as if it's not there, which is why most rifle calibers are not restricted. For example, see Fatal Bullet Pierced Kevlar Vest--the weapon was an 1890's design hunting rifle firing the relatively low-powered (for a rifle) .30-30 Winchester cartridge. Police body armor light enough to wear all day is simply not capable of stopping rifle ammunition, AP or not.
Regarding SS109 .223 caliber ammunition--SS109 is not armor-piercing ammunition as determined by the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (hence not banned), and it is not classified as AP by the military. SS109 is denoted by a green-tip; .223 armor-piercing rounds are black tip, have a tungsten core, and are restricted to military and law enforcement only, so for a seller to call them AP is tantamount to fraud. SS109 actually has LESS penetration at ranges under 400 meters than the lighter-but-faster lead-core bullet it replaced.
.30-06 AP (metal piercing) is allowed by the BATFE because it is irrelevant; a .30-06 will penetrate all concealable body armor (like police wear) even with soft lead-tipped hunting bullets, and in fact you could line up several vests front-to-back and an ordinary .30-06 hunting round would go through the whole stack. To stop .30-06, you need NIJ Level IV armor (hard-shell armor), which will stop ALL .30-06 ammunition, including tungsten-core AP.
In short, "cop-killer bullets" have been tightly controlled for 19 years now, and any new ban on ammunition capable of penetrating police vests would ban practically all rifle ammunition.
KTW ammunition was banned in 1986, by a bipartisan bill the NRA helped author. It has been restricted to law enforcement and military only for the last 19 years. Full story here. It restricts ALL handgun ammunition constructed of hard materials (steel, titanium, hardened bronze) that would allow a bullet to penetrate a vest that would otherwise be proof against that caliber. The law also restricts armor-piercing rifle ammunition in .223/5.56mm, 7.62x39mm, and .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm.
Practically ALL rifle ammunition will penetrate police body armor as if it's not there, which is why most rifle calibers are not restricted. For example, see Fatal Bullet Pierced Kevlar Vest--the weapon was an 1890's design hunting rifle firing the relatively low-powered (for a rifle) .30-30 Winchester cartridge. Police body armor light enough to wear all day is simply not capable of stopping rifle ammunition, AP or not.
Regarding SS109 .223 caliber ammunition--SS109 is not armor-piercing ammunition as determined by the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (hence not banned), and it is not classified as AP by the military. SS109 is denoted by a green-tip; .223 armor-piercing rounds are black tip, have a tungsten core, and are restricted to military and law enforcement only, so for a seller to call them AP is tantamount to fraud. SS109 actually has LESS penetration at ranges under 400 meters than the lighter-but-faster lead-core bullet it replaced.
.30-06 AP (metal piercing) is allowed by the BATFE because it is irrelevant; a .30-06 will penetrate all concealable body armor (like police wear) even with soft lead-tipped hunting bullets, and in fact you could line up several vests front-to-back and an ordinary .30-06 hunting round would go through the whole stack. To stop .30-06, you need NIJ Level IV armor (hard-shell armor), which will stop ALL .30-06 ammunition, including tungsten-core AP.
In short, "cop-killer bullets" have been tightly controlled for 19 years now, and any new ban on ammunition capable of penetrating police vests would ban practically all rifle ammunition.
Nice to see ya, benEzra. I figured this thread would bring you out of the woodwork! 
QUOTE(Stephen @ Jul 29 2005, 09:21 PM)
Nice to see ya, benEzra. I figured this thread would bring you out of the woodwork!
Been hanging out over at DU for a while. Nice to be back!
QUOTE(benEzra @ Jul 29 2005, 08:33 PM)
Been hanging out over at DU for a while. Nice to be back!
How are things at "Ducks Unlimited"...
QUOTE(Stephen @ Jul 29 2005, 09:21 PM)
Nice to see ya, benEzra. I figured this thread would bring you out of the woodwork!
And he produces a well written, factual post to boot!
QUOTE(benEzra @ Jul 29 2005, 09:33 PM)
Been hanging out over at DU for a while. Nice to be back!
DU tombstoned me, again, third time, and I never said a word that is not the truth. I would rather hang out where someone listens, even if only occasionally. There is a scarcity of freedom on DU, these days.
DU has become so damned paranoid about freepers that we have started to eat our own, guess who wins? Clue, it sure ain't US!
BenEzra, your patience and tact is legendary, my hat is off to you!
Nothing, but the truth, will set you free!
Sorry I had to leave the discussion.
"so for a seller to call them AP is tantamount to fraud"
Tell that to E-bay then. I posted what people are selling on E-bay.
I didn't have time to look for the ad that Senator Kennedy showed today with titanium bullets. He put the ad in the congressional record. Maybe that ad was pulled off E-bay.
He said that the recent FBI/other Intelligence reports show that people are buying those bullets in the U.S. and killing cops, agents and soldiers.
Maybe there is a transcript from today's senate discussion that you can read what he said and pick it apart.
"so for a seller to call them AP is tantamount to fraud"
Tell that to E-bay then. I posted what people are selling on E-bay.
I didn't have time to look for the ad that Senator Kennedy showed today with titanium bullets. He put the ad in the congressional record. Maybe that ad was pulled off E-bay.
He said that the recent FBI/other Intelligence reports show that people are buying those bullets in the U.S. and killing cops, agents and soldiers.
Maybe there is a transcript from today's senate discussion that you can read what he said and pick it apart.
This particular section has found most of the common ground on the forum, Bob. The folks here finally believe that gun control isn't a Dem. vs. Repub. thing as much as a Libertarian vs. Authoritarian thing. You can't embrace the other sections of the Bill of Rights, and blow this one off. That is the height of hypocrisy.
QUOTE(heritage @ Jul 29 2005, 10:42 PM)
Sorry I had to leave the discussion.
"so for a seller to call them AP is tantamount to fraud"
Tell that to E-bay then. I posted what people are selling on E-bay.
I didn't have time to look for the ad that Senator Kennedy showed today with titanium bullets. He put the ad in the congressional record. Maybe that ad was pulled off E-bay.
He said that the recent FBI/other Intelligence reports show that people are buying those bullets in the U.S. and killing cops, agents and soldiers.
Maybe there is a transcript from today's senate discussion that you can read what he said and pick it apart.
"so for a seller to call them AP is tantamount to fraud"
Tell that to E-bay then. I posted what people are selling on E-bay.
I didn't have time to look for the ad that Senator Kennedy showed today with titanium bullets. He put the ad in the congressional record. Maybe that ad was pulled off E-bay.
He said that the recent FBI/other Intelligence reports show that people are buying those bullets in the U.S. and killing cops, agents and soldiers.
Maybe there is a transcript from today's senate discussion that you can read what he said and pick it apart.
With all due respect...Kennedy is an anti-gun zealot who deals in misinformation and innuendo. He will have to publish those reports for me to believe them.
If he had serious proof of any of this he would get his amendment passed, but he’s been trying to get this dog to hunt for years with no success. Only those with little or no knowledge of the subject listen to him.
The democrat amendments failed because republicans have more votes.
Last year Frist didn't have the votes.
Frist pulled this vote out on the last day of the session with a short floor debate.
This bill did not go through a committee hearing first so the public could weigh the evidence from experts rather than the rhetoric from senators on both sides.
Last year Frist didn't have the votes.
Frist pulled this vote out on the last day of the session with a short floor debate.
This bill did not go through a committee hearing first so the public could weigh the evidence from experts rather than the rhetoric from senators on both sides.
QUOTE(heritage @ Jul 29 2005, 11:04 PM)
The democrat amendments failed because republicans have more votes.
Last year Frist didn't have the votes.
Frist pulled this vote out on the last day of the session with a short floor debate.
This bill did not go through a committee hearing first so the public could weigh the evidence from experts rather than the rhetoric from senators on both sides.
Last year Frist didn't have the votes.
Frist pulled this vote out on the last day of the session with a short floor debate.
This bill did not go through a committee hearing first so the public could weigh the evidence from experts rather than the rhetoric from senators on both sides.
Actually he did have the votes last year, but the Libs loaded it down with so much anti-gun BS that the bill was pulled.
What is it exactly you don't like about the bill? Careful now...we are chapter and verse on this subject.
QUOTE(heritage @ Jul 29 2005, 11:42 PM)
Sorry I had to leave the discussion.
"so for a seller to call them AP is tantamount to fraud"
Tell that to E-bay then. I posted what people are selling on E-bay.
I didn't have time to look for the ad that Senator Kennedy showed today with titanium bullets. He put the ad in the congressional record. Maybe that ad was pulled off E-bay.
He said that the recent FBI/other Intelligence reports show that people are buying those bullets in the U.S. and killing cops, agents and soldiers.
Maybe there is a transcript from today's senate discussion that you can read what he said and pick it apart.
"so for a seller to call them AP is tantamount to fraud"
Tell that to E-bay then. I posted what people are selling on E-bay.
I didn't have time to look for the ad that Senator Kennedy showed today with titanium bullets. He put the ad in the congressional record. Maybe that ad was pulled off E-bay.
He said that the recent FBI/other Intelligence reports show that people are buying those bullets in the U.S. and killing cops, agents and soldiers.
Maybe there is a transcript from today's senate discussion that you can read what he said and pick it apart.
Come on, Heritage, enough with the excuses! "I didn't have time"? How lame can you get?
My grandson's future depends on the accuracy of the decisions I make NOW. My doctors won't even make guesses about how long I will be here, just maybe you should take time to get things right, while you still have the time.
"He said"? "He" still puts his pants on, one leg at a time, and "He" still needs to wipe his hiney, if "He" doesn't want it to itch!
Why do we need to be stuck with all these so called "Heros"?
TK is only saying what it takes to keep him from needing to figure out how to make an honest living.
Jaaysus Frog, Heritaqe, you don't believe that god exists, but you tell me that TKs word is divine, and inspired? Is this the best you can do? We have got to do better!
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