It is now 1111 days since George Bush announced 'Mission Accomplished'.
His latest strategy, reminiscent of the Berlin Wall, is to militarize our southern border.
The Presumption of Innocence, the Rule of Law, the Statue of Liberty; Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness...
...incompetence, torture, spies, lies; and no end in sight- how long will it last?
10 years? a generation? the religious zealot wars in Europe lasted a century.
Will any of our traditional values will survive his war?
Full Version: Day 1111: The Iron Curtain
QUOTE(ThomPaine @ May 16 2006, 08:22 AM)
It is now 1111 days since George Bush announced 'Mission Accomplished'.
His latest strategy, reminiscent of the Berlin Wall, is to militarize our southern border.
The Presumption of Innocence, the Rule of Law, the Statue of Liberty; Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness...
...incompetence, torture, spies, lies; and no end in sight- how long will it last?
10 years? a generation? the religious zealot wars in Europe lasted a century.
Will any of our traditional values will survive his war?
His latest strategy, reminiscent of the Berlin Wall, is to militarize our southern border.
The Presumption of Innocence, the Rule of Law, the Statue of Liberty; Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness...
...incompetence, torture, spies, lies; and no end in sight- how long will it last?
10 years? a generation? the religious zealot wars in Europe lasted a century.
Will any of our traditional values will survive his war?
I don't think Bush is "barring Brownskins" from enetering this nation. I think he's trying to find effective methods for preventing anyone from entering this country illegally. What suggestions do you have for preventing people from illegally entering the U.S. from our Southern border? I'm not sure I like the idea of a wall, so what realistic options are available for border control?
Hi Amy-
If we don't hold to ideals when they are challenged, then they were merely hypocrisy.
&... it doesn't matter what you or I think- the rest of the world sees us putting troops on the border with brown-skinned neighbors, and not on the border with white-skinned neighbors.
Our northern border is even more open to our adversaries than the southern one, actual attempts to smuggle weapons in have been stopped there. It you believe putting troops on the border is actually about stopping lawnboys, after years of 'who cares'... well, I don't.
If we don't hold to ideals when they are challenged, then they were merely hypocrisy.
&... it doesn't matter what you or I think- the rest of the world sees us putting troops on the border with brown-skinned neighbors, and not on the border with white-skinned neighbors.
Our northern border is even more open to our adversaries than the southern one, actual attempts to smuggle weapons in have been stopped there. It you believe putting troops on the border is actually about stopping lawnboys, after years of 'who cares'... well, I don't.
QUOTE(ThomPaine @ May 16 2006, 09:43 AM)
Hi Amy-
If we don't hold to ideals when they are challenged, then they were merely hypocrisy.
&... it doesn't matter what you or I think- the rest of the world sees us putting troops on the border with brown-skinned neighbors, and not on the border with white-skinned neighbors.
Our northern border is even more open to our adversaries than the southern one, actual attempts to smuggle weapons in have been stopped there. It you believe putting troops on the border is actually about stopping lawnboys, after years of 'who cares'... well, I don't.
If we don't hold to ideals when they are challenged, then they were merely hypocrisy.
&... it doesn't matter what you or I think- the rest of the world sees us putting troops on the border with brown-skinned neighbors, and not on the border with white-skinned neighbors.
Our northern border is even more open to our adversaries than the southern one, actual attempts to smuggle weapons in have been stopped there. It you believe putting troops on the border is actually about stopping lawnboys, after years of 'who cares'... well, I don't.
Hi TP!
I don't know what he answer is. Should we have troops on the Canadian border? Should we have no troops on either border? How do we increase security at our borders without offending one group or another? I don't think there are tidal waves of immigrants from Canada illegally entering the U.S. for work. Also, I assume the Canadians are on the alert with their border controls. Obviously Mexico isn't interested in helping to better secure our shared border from terorists. Its own people illegally enter our country by the miilions.
As I said, I don't know what the answer is, but what methods do you think the U.S. should use to control who enters our country from Mexico? Or shouldn't we be concerned with border security at all, either north or south?
QUOTE(ThomPaine @ May 16 2006, 09:43 AM)
Hi Amy-
If we don't hold to ideals when they are challenged, then they were merely hypocrisy.
&... it doesn't matter what you or I think- the rest of the world sees us putting troops on the border with brown-skinned neighbors, and not on the border with white-skinned neighbors.
Our northern border is even more open to our adversaries than the southern one, actual attempts to smuggle weapons in have been stopped there. It you believe putting troops on the border is actually about stopping lawnboys, after years of 'who cares'... well, I don't.
If we don't hold to ideals when they are challenged, then they were merely hypocrisy.
&... it doesn't matter what you or I think- the rest of the world sees us putting troops on the border with brown-skinned neighbors, and not on the border with white-skinned neighbors.
Our northern border is even more open to our adversaries than the southern one, actual attempts to smuggle weapons in have been stopped there. It you believe putting troops on the border is actually about stopping lawnboys, after years of 'who cares'... well, I don't.
The amount of traffic, illegal immigration, drug smuggling, criminals crossing, destruction of property, resource consumption(be it medical, education, etc) are almost all coming from the southern border. You can call it racist if you want, if you do I will just call you uninformed. Does the Canadian border need attention, absolutely. Is whats happening at that border equivalent to the Mexican border, not even close.
heres some statistics for u pro illegal immigration that will shut u up. They are staggering.
1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County (L.A. County has 10 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.
2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
4. Over 2/3's of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers.
5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.
6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.
9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.
10. In L.A.County 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak Spanish (10.2 million people in L.A.County).
(All 10 from the Los Angeles Times)
Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops but 29% are on welfare.
http://www.cis.org
Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from immigration.
The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was a NET (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay) $70 BILLION a year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University].
The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE.
29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.
GOPGuy is right on the money
1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County (L.A. County has 10 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.
2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
4. Over 2/3's of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers.
5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.
6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.
9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.
10. In L.A.County 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak Spanish (10.2 million people in L.A.County).
(All 10 from the Los Angeles Times)
Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops but 29% are on welfare.
http://www.cis.org
Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from immigration.
The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was a NET (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay) $70 BILLION a year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University].
The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE.
29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.
GOPGuy is right on the money
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
#1 OK, just a little California history...
The United States in 1846 declared war on Mexico, and during the course of that war American military forces seized California. The war was fueled in part by feelings of Manifest Destiny, a popular sentiment in the United States that viewed the expansion of the nation as an inevitability. http://www.californiahistory.net/ranchos_frame_mexamwar.htm
Meanwhile, Santa Anna had secretly been dealing with representatives of the USA, pledging that if he were allowed back in Mexico through the US naval blockades, he would work to sell all contested territory to the United States at a reasonable price.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_L%C3%...#US-Mexican_War
So then, with a bogus war and a bribe or two, the Mexican & Native American residents of California, newly freed from Spain, are overwhelmed by a Gold Rush.
#2 Wilson... So many of your points are scare tactics I gotta laugh. 21 radio stations are Spanish speaking? That's skin off your nose?
The crime stats are mostly circular logic- round up the illegals and they will fill the jails. Jam poor people together & you'll have crime. Even libertarians should know that.
And your fiscal figures... you left out a few. The undocumented immigrants are almost all having withholding taken from their pay, according to INS. If it doesn't arrive at the gummint coffers- better ask their employers where it went.
And these same employers are the ones really cutting US jobs, wages, & beating the system- not the workers.
These same type things were said about the Irish, the Poles, the Blacks, & the Orientals at one time or another, followed by 'round'em up.'
Give'em a decent job and see how long they live in a ghetto.
Its not all about your pocketbook, its also about ideals like the motto for the Statue of Liberty. If there's any real moral justification for California (or Texas, NM, AZ) not being Mexican, it is those ideals expressed in a consensus society.
It might be good to remember, at one point, your ancestors were illegal aliens too. Ask any Iroquois.
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
#1 OK, just a little California history...
The United States in 1846 declared war on Mexico, and during the course of that war American military forces seized California. The war was fueled in part by feelings of Manifest Destiny, a popular sentiment in the United States that viewed the expansion of the nation as an inevitability. http://www.californiahistory.net/ranchos_frame_mexamwar.htm
Meanwhile, Santa Anna had secretly been dealing with representatives of the USA, pledging that if he were allowed back in Mexico through the US naval blockades, he would work to sell all contested territory to the United States at a reasonable price.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_L%C3%...#US-Mexican_War
So then, with a bogus war and a bribe or two, the Mexican & Native American residents of California, newly freed from Spain, are overwhelmed by a Gold Rush.
#2 Wilson... So many of your points are scare tactics I gotta laugh. 21 radio stations are Spanish speaking? That's skin off your nose?
The crime stats are mostly circular logic- round up the illegals and they will fill the jails. Jam poor people together & you'll have crime. Even libertarians should know that.
And your fiscal figures... you left out a few. The undocumented immigrants are almost all having withholding taken from their pay, according to INS. If it doesn't arrive at the gummint coffers- better ask their employers where it went.
And these same employers are the ones really cutting US jobs, wages, & beating the system- not the workers.
These same type things were said about the Irish, the Poles, the Blacks, & the Orientals at one time or another, followed by 'round'em up.'
Give'em a decent job and see how long they live in a ghetto.
Its not all about your pocketbook, its also about ideals like the motto for the Statue of Liberty. If there's any real moral justification for California (or Texas, NM, AZ) not being Mexican, it is those ideals expressed in a consensus society.
It might be good to remember, at one point, your ancestors were illegal aliens too. Ask any Iroquois.
Personally, I wonder what his ulterior motive is, and my fear is he is going to try and keep us from leaving, not keep others from coming in, but that's just parnoid ole' me.
I would personally let all of them stay here.
They are not our enemies, they are not terrorists, and they work jobs nobody wants.
They don't commit crimes for the most part either.
Being in NJ/NY area, where there are millions, I say they are welcome.
That's just liberal ole' me though.
These are people.
I would personally let all of them stay here.
They are not our enemies, they are not terrorists, and they work jobs nobody wants.
They don't commit crimes for the most part either.
Being in NJ/NY area, where there are millions, I say they are welcome.
That's just liberal ole' me though.
These are people.
Good for you, Graham! That was the purpose of the Iron Curtain too. I really worry about treating Mexicans about like the Palestinians have been; alienating yet another ally, most of all- why now? The full-court-press orchestration of the media is off-key somehow... and if what I suspect is true, we really want everybody along our borders to be fully on our side.
The more days pass, the more I am convinced Bush has an ulterior motive for everything, and he is not incompetent.
He may be nuts, his family power hungry, but everything they have done is for a sick reason if you ask me. (Of course I am called nuts too by some people here) but I don't trust anything he does
And if the national guard is allowed to patrol one place, a few months from now, people won't mind if they are put in another state (Al Queda is coming) until they are in all 50 states...
or if the flu mutates... (of course where are they going to get the soldiers from is another story altogether that I don't want to know the answer to that either)
He may be nuts, his family power hungry, but everything they have done is for a sick reason if you ask me. (Of course I am called nuts too by some people here) but I don't trust anything he does
And if the national guard is allowed to patrol one place, a few months from now, people won't mind if they are put in another state (Al Queda is coming) until they are in all 50 states...
or if the flu mutates... (of course where are they going to get the soldiers from is another story altogether that I don't want to know the answer to that either)
QUOTE(ThomPaine @ May 16 2006, 09:10 PM)
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
#1 OK, just a little California history...
The United States in 1846 declared war on Mexico, and during the course of that war American military forces seized California. The war was fueled in part by feelings of Manifest Destiny, a popular sentiment in the United States that viewed the expansion of the nation as an inevitability. http://www.californiahistory.net/ranchos_frame_mexamwar.htm
Meanwhile, Santa Anna had secretly been dealing with representatives of the USA, pledging that if he were allowed back in Mexico through the US naval blockades, he would work to sell all contested territory to the United States at a reasonable price.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_L%C3%...#US-Mexican_War
So then, with a bogus war and a bribe or two, the Mexican & Native American residents of California, newly freed from Spain, are overwhelmed by a Gold Rush.
#2 Wilson... So many of your points are scare tactics I gotta laugh. 21 radio stations are Spanish speaking? That's skin off your nose?
The crime stats are mostly circular logic- round up the illegals and they will fill the jails. Jam poor people together & you'll have crime. Even libertarians should know that.
And your fiscal figures... you left out a few. The undocumented immigrants are almost all having withholding taken from their pay, according to INS. If it doesn't arrive at the gummint coffers- better ask their employers where it went.
And these same employers are the ones really cutting US jobs, wages, & beating the system- not the workers.
These same type things were said about the Irish, the Poles, the Blacks, & the Orientals at one time or another, followed by 'round'em up.'
Give'em a decent job and see how long they live in a ghetto.
Its not all about your pocketbook, its also about ideals like the motto for the Statue of Liberty. If there's any real moral justification for California (or Texas, NM, AZ) not being Mexican, it is those ideals expressed in a consensus society.
It might be good to remember, at one point, your ancestors were illegal aliens too. Ask any Iroquois.
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
#1 OK, just a little California history...
The United States in 1846 declared war on Mexico, and during the course of that war American military forces seized California. The war was fueled in part by feelings of Manifest Destiny, a popular sentiment in the United States that viewed the expansion of the nation as an inevitability. http://www.californiahistory.net/ranchos_frame_mexamwar.htm
Meanwhile, Santa Anna had secretly been dealing with representatives of the USA, pledging that if he were allowed back in Mexico through the US naval blockades, he would work to sell all contested territory to the United States at a reasonable price.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_L%C3%...#US-Mexican_War
So then, with a bogus war and a bribe or two, the Mexican & Native American residents of California, newly freed from Spain, are overwhelmed by a Gold Rush.
#2 Wilson... So many of your points are scare tactics I gotta laugh. 21 radio stations are Spanish speaking? That's skin off your nose?
The crime stats are mostly circular logic- round up the illegals and they will fill the jails. Jam poor people together & you'll have crime. Even libertarians should know that.
And your fiscal figures... you left out a few. The undocumented immigrants are almost all having withholding taken from their pay, according to INS. If it doesn't arrive at the gummint coffers- better ask their employers where it went.
And these same employers are the ones really cutting US jobs, wages, & beating the system- not the workers.
These same type things were said about the Irish, the Poles, the Blacks, & the Orientals at one time or another, followed by 'round'em up.'
Give'em a decent job and see how long they live in a ghetto.
Its not all about your pocketbook, its also about ideals like the motto for the Statue of Liberty. If there's any real moral justification for California (or Texas, NM, AZ) not being Mexican, it is those ideals expressed in a consensus society.
It might be good to remember, at one point, your ancestors were illegal aliens too. Ask any Iroquois.
The ideal of the motto don't have anything to do with breaking the law and coming here illegally. I have not problem with a guest worker program and if the US government wants to let them all in here through legal channels so be it. But they must be documented and legal so we can screen out those who are criminals and just take those who are actually looking for work. To just let anyone in willy nilly and not know who it is, is retarded. And anyone supporting such a policy is also retarded(IMHO).
GOP- you having a humble opinion? 
why do you always argue by exaggeration & insult? why are you so intolerant? so sad.
I'd just like to point out that a large part of the original English-speaking colonial population in North America was made up of transported criminals and religious fanatics. Of course, they were legally transported for stealing a loaf of bread, or in the case of the Quakers, for showing excessive toleration of other religions.
We've had 'undocumented workers' coming across the border since there was a border, last year it was a non-issue, suddenly its urgent to militarize the border. Think about it; and think about the fact that its not the Mexicans that are off-shoring whole industries, tho it makes a great distraction to our real issues.
Mexico has huge oil reserves, and we are about to both offend them on a very personal level, and rock their economy. Consider how video of soldiers on our borders will play around the world- a sign of weakness and fear.
If the moral argument doesn't make you think, consider the serious unintended consequences of this latest in the long string of Bush blunders.
why do you always argue by exaggeration & insult? why are you so intolerant? so sad.
I'd just like to point out that a large part of the original English-speaking colonial population in North America was made up of transported criminals and religious fanatics. Of course, they were legally transported for stealing a loaf of bread, or in the case of the Quakers, for showing excessive toleration of other religions.
We've had 'undocumented workers' coming across the border since there was a border, last year it was a non-issue, suddenly its urgent to militarize the border. Think about it; and think about the fact that its not the Mexicans that are off-shoring whole industries, tho it makes a great distraction to our real issues.
Mexico has huge oil reserves, and we are about to both offend them on a very personal level, and rock their economy. Consider how video of soldiers on our borders will play around the world- a sign of weakness and fear.
If the moral argument doesn't make you think, consider the serious unintended consequences of this latest in the long string of Bush blunders.
FWIW, those 21 spanish stations are all different.
Which is more than I can say for the 11 dial positions with Lush Rambo.
Which is more than I can say for the 11 dial positions with Lush Rambo.
QUOTE(GOPGuy @ May 17 2006, 12:25 AM)
The ideal of the motto don't have anything to do with breaking the law and coming here illegally. I have not problem with a guest worker program and if the US government wants to let them all in here through legal channels so be it. But they must be documented and legal so we can screen out those who are criminals and just take those who are actually looking for work. To just let anyone in willy nilly and not know who it is, is retarded. And anyone supporting such a policy is also retarded(IMHO).
I agree with your opinion here, but is it really necessary to refer to those who disagree with you as "retarded", even if it is only in your humble opinion?
QUOTE(ThomPaine @ May 17 2006, 07:21 AM)
GOP- you having a humble opinion?
why do you always argue by exaggeration & insult? why are you so intolerant? so sad.
I'd just like to point out that a large part of the original English-speaking colonial population in North America was made up of transported criminals and religious fanatics. Of course, they were legally transported for stealing a loaf of bread, or in the case of the Quakers, for showing excessive toleration of other religions.
We've had 'undocumented workers' coming across the border since there was a border, last year it was a non-issue, suddenly its urgent to militarize the border. Think about it; and think about the fact that its not the Mexicans that are off-shoring whole industries, tho it makes a great distraction to our real issues.
Mexico has huge oil reserves, and we are about to both offend them on a very personal level, and rock their economy. Consider how video of soldiers on our borders will play around the world- a sign of weakness and fear.
If the moral argument doesn't make you think, consider the serious unintended consequences of this latest in the long string of Bush blunders.
why do you always argue by exaggeration & insult? why are you so intolerant? so sad.
I'd just like to point out that a large part of the original English-speaking colonial population in North America was made up of transported criminals and religious fanatics. Of course, they were legally transported for stealing a loaf of bread, or in the case of the Quakers, for showing excessive toleration of other religions.
We've had 'undocumented workers' coming across the border since there was a border, last year it was a non-issue, suddenly its urgent to militarize the border. Think about it; and think about the fact that its not the Mexicans that are off-shoring whole industries, tho it makes a great distraction to our real issues.
Mexico has huge oil reserves, and we are about to both offend them on a very personal level, and rock their economy. Consider how video of soldiers on our borders will play around the world- a sign of weakness and fear.
If the moral argument doesn't make you think, consider the serious unintended consequences of this latest in the long string of Bush blunders.
I really don't care about offending a country that encourages their citizens to break the laws of our country. Mexico needs us more than we need Mexico. This issue has been around for decades, just because the main stream media hasn't been reporting on it doesn't mean it didn't exist.
QUOTE(amy @ May 17 2006, 09:13 AM)
I agree with your opinion here, but is it really necessary to refer to those who disagree with you as "retarded", even if it is only in your humble opinion?
Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade to get your point across.
QUOTE(ThomPaine @ May 16 2006, 05:10 PM)
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
#2 Wilson... So many of your points are scare tactics I gotta laugh. 21 radio stations are Spanish speaking? That's skin off your nose?
The crime stats are mostly circular logic- round up the illegals and they will fill the jails. Jam poor people together & you'll have crime. Even libertarians should know that.
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
#2 Wilson... So many of your points are scare tactics I gotta laugh. 21 radio stations are Spanish speaking? That's skin off your nose?
The crime stats are mostly circular logic- round up the illegals and they will fill the jails. Jam poor people together & you'll have crime. Even libertarians should know that.
those arent scare tactics those are real #s. A lot of illegals come here wanting free health care, etc. and expect us to pay for that crap, you wonder why taxes and insurance rates are so high? Sorry i dont go to another country illegally demanding free health care, and welfare. Thats just a bunch of crap. I agree with GOPGuy, if they want to go through the legal boundaries to get into this country (just like any other western country would do) and see if they arent a criminal im ok with that. But letting just any joe shmoe in is a stupid policy and degrades our society.
QUOTE(amy @ May 16 2006, 07:35 AM)
I don't think Bush is "barring Brownskins" from enetering this nation. I think he's trying to find effective methods for preventing anyone from entering this country illegally. What suggestions do you have for preventing people from illegally entering the U.S. from our Southern border? I'm not sure I like the idea of a wall, so what realistic options are available for border control?
I could not believe you do not believe this. If you do not believe this please explain why this discussion pertains to only one border?
Perhaps this quote from the history of the Berlin Wall will alter thinking.
"To prevent getting out
Contrary to the claim of East German propaganda, the Wall was not an " antifascist wall of protection " intended to avoid aggression from the West. It was entirely for domestic use, being designed not to stop people getting in but to prevent them getting out"
If the draft were back and the boarders had walls?????? If the US economy collapsed because of our debt to China and rather then see your children starve you wanted to take them out of the country?
Remember how fast the aviation industry was able to clear the skies after (9/11 invoked)ordered to.
"To prevent getting out
Contrary to the claim of East German propaganda, the Wall was not an " antifascist wall of protection " intended to avoid aggression from the West. It was entirely for domestic use, being designed not to stop people getting in but to prevent them getting out"
If the draft were back and the boarders had walls?????? If the US economy collapsed because of our debt to China and rather then see your children starve you wanted to take them out of the country?
Remember how fast the aviation industry was able to clear the skies after (9/11 invoked)ordered to.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.