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Magmak1
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews...ws/15321194.htm

-- --

Posted on Sun, Aug. 20, 2006
Challenge to lone gunman theory
By Betsy Mason
CONTRA COSTA TIMES

LIVERMORE - More than four decades after his death, John F. Kennedy's assassination remains the hottest cold case in U.S. history, and the clues continue to trickle in. Now Lawrence Livermore Laboratory scientists say a key piece of evidence supporting the lone gunman theory should be thrown out.

A new look at clues gleaned from studies of crime-scene bullet fragments shows they may have been misinterpreted.

"It basically shatters what some people call the best physical evidence around," said chemist Pat Grant, director of the lab's Forensic Science Center.

Grant and Livermore Lab metallurgist Erik Randich found that the chemical "fingerprints" used to identify which bullets the fragments came from are actually more like run-of-the-mill tire tracks than one-of-a-kind fingerprints.

"I've spoken with people on both sides of the conspiracy divide and there's no question but that (Randich and Grant's) work is going to be very difficult, if not outright impossible, to refute," said Gary Aguilar, a San Francisco ophthalmologist and single-bullet skeptic who has studied the Kennedy assassination for more than a decade. "It looks impregnable."

The government's claim that Lee Harvey Oswald alone killed Kennedy spawned a vitriolic debate between conspiracy theorists and lone gunman supporters that rages to this day.

In 1964, the Warren Commission, established by President Lyndon B. Johnson to investigate the assassination, concluded that Oswald fired just three shots from the Texas School Book Depository in Dallas: The first missed entirely. The second passed through the president's neck, into Texas Governor John Connally's body under his right arm, out through his chest and then splintered his wrist and wounded his left thigh. The third fatally hit Kennedy in the head.

Single-bullet theory

Even though three bullets were involved, this scenario became known as the "single-bullet theory" because it requires the second bullet to account for all the nonfatal injuries to both Kennedy and Connally.

The injuries to Kennedy's neck and to Connally happened within a split second of each other. So either the injuries to both men came from a single bullet from Oswald or from at least two bullets from more than one shooter. Oswald's rifle couldn't have fired two shots in such rapid succession.

So in order for Oswald to be the lone gunman, it had to be a single bullet.



Skeptics and believers alike say the bullets amount to the most important piece of physical evidence for the single-bullet theory. Throwing it out is like removing a leg from a four-legged table.

"Warren Commission defenders consider this evidence central to the single-bullet theory," Aguilar said.

But Grant and Randich say the bullet lead analysis was faulty. Both Randich and Grant are forensic scientists at Livermore Lab but researched the JFK case on their own time. Their work is the latest chapter in an ongoing saga.

Lead impurities

In the immediate aftermath of the assassination, the FBI analyzed five bullet fragments recovered from the limousine, the governor's wrist, the president's brain and from a hospital stretcher.

The FBI used a technique known as "neutron activation" analysis to find the precise composition of the fragments. By determining the exact amounts of impurities in the lead, such as antimony and silver, they hoped to be able to tell which fragments came from the same bullet. But the FBI decided it couldn't draw any conclusions from the results.

In 1976, the U.S. House of Representatives formed an assassination committee to investigate the deaths of JFK and Martin Luther King Jr. The move was largely a response to hundreds of books, documentaries and magazine pieces questioning the government's version of the JFK assassination, as well as public outcry following the first airing of Abraham Zapruder's home movie of the assassination on the television show, "Good Night America."

The committee called in nuclear chemist Vincent Guinn, one of the world's foremost experts on neutron activation, to reanalyze the bits of bullet lead.

Unlike the FBI, Guinn drew a very clear conclusion. He said the antimony in the fragments clearly showed they all came from two, and only two, bullets of the type used by Oswald's gun, which supports the Warren Commission's lone gunman theory.

According to Guinn, one set of fragments from the president's brain and the limousine in front of the president had around .06 percent antimony, and all came from the bullet that killed JFK. The other set of fragments from the governor's wrist and a nearly intact bullet found on a stretcher at the hospital had closer to .08 percent antimony and were pieces of the infamous "single bullet."

Based on evidence including the bullet lead, the committee concluded in 1979 that both shots had come from Oswald's gun.

They did not, however, rule out the possibility of a conspiracy. In fact, they strongly suspected a second shooter was present that day, but based on Guinn's data, any second shooter had missed the target.

Or maybe not.

"It turns out that if you really analyze the results correctly, then the results are wrong," said Grant.

Fatal flaw

Randich and Grant's study grew out of work Randich did in 2002 that exposed a fatal flaw in the FBI's use of bullet-lead evidence to connect suspects with crime scenes in thousands of criminal cases during the past three decades.

The FBI claimed that like a fingerprint, each batch of lead has a unique chemical signature, so the specific amounts of impurities in a lead bullet could match it with other bullets from the same batch. For example, if bullets at a suspect's house were found to have the same impurity signature as a bullet or fragment found at a murder scene, it was treated as evidence tying the suspect to the crime.

Randich's training as a metallurgist told him there was something wrong with this reasoning.

"I realized these people could put my sons in jail with bogus science," he said. "I thought I ought to do something about it."

By analyzing years of data kept by lead smelters, Randich found that batches are not unique, and bullets from different batches of bullets poured months or years apart could have the same chemical signature. And bullets poured from the start of a batch could differ slightly, but measurably, from those at the end.

He has testified in about a dozen cases. Because of his work, courts now reject bullet-lead analysis and the FBI no longer uses it as evidence.

JFK case problems

The JFK case has similar problems.

According to Guinn, the type of bullets used by Oswald happened to have highly variable amounts of antimony.

Guinn said the variation between bullets of this type was so great that he could use it to tell individual bullets apart, even from the same batch of lead.

Randich and Grant say that assumption is dead wrong.

They analyzed the same type of bullets and showed that within a single bullet, there is a significant variation in impurities on a microscopic scale. The range of concentrations of impurities in each bullet is large enough to make small fragments from different parts of the same bullet have very different chemical fingerprints.

Some of the fragments in the JFK case are so small that the differences in antimony could be explained entirely by this microscopic variation, instead of by differences between bullets, they said. Randich and Grant's study was published in July in the Journal of Forensic Sciences.

One to five bullets

"We don't know if there were two bullets," said Randich. "There could have been two bullets, but the lead composition data shows there could be anywhere from one to five bullets."

The bullet found on the stretcher is missing some lead, but not enough to account for all the other fragments. So there had to be more than one bullet. But Grant and Randich say there is no way to tell how many more, at least from the bullet lead.

Losing Guinn's bullet-lead evidence is a major blow to the single-bullet theory.

That evidence "knits together the core physical evidence into an airtight case against Lee Oswald," according to a 2004 paper by Larry Sturdivan and Ken Rahn in an issue of Journal of Radioanalytical and Nuclear Chemistry that celebrated Vincent Guinn after his death. "It is, thus, the key to resolving the major controversies in the JFK assassination and putting the matter to rest," the paper said.

Rahn, an atmospheric chemist recently retired from the University of Rhode Island, stands by this statement and Guinn's research despite Randich and Grant's study.

He says he believes it is possible that microscopic variation occurs within bullets of this type, but Grant and Randich can't say for sure whether it happened in the JFK bullets because they didn't analyze those particular fragments.

Rahn thinks it is far more likely the fragments fell into two distinct groups, one with .06 percent antimony and the other with .08 percent, because they came from two distinct bullets.

This fits the Warren Commission's conclusion that Oswald was the lone shooter, and two of the three bullets he shot hit the occupants of the president's limousine, Rahn said.

Grant counters that the two groups of bullet fragments might not actually be that distinct. The margin of error associated with the antimony analysis means that, statistically, the concentrations are too close to separate into groups.

Although Randich and Grant's research doesn't solve the Kennedy assassination, it certainly does weaken the case for a lone gunman.

"In recent years, the (bullet) fragment evidence has become one of the key struts supporting the single-bullet theory," Aguilar said. "Randich and Grant have knocked this slat out from under the theory."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Betsy Mason covers science and the national laboratories.
Marine
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Aug 21 2006, 01:08 PM)
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews...ws/15321194.htm

-- --

Posted on Sun, Aug. 20, 2006
Challenge to lone gunman theory
By Betsy Mason
CONTRA COSTA TIMES

LIVERMORE - More than four decades after his death, John F. Kennedy's assassination remains the hottest cold case in U.S. history, and the clues continue to trickle in. Now Lawrence Livermore Laboratory scientists say a key piece of evidence supporting the lone gunman theory should be thrown out.

A new look at clues gleaned from studies of crime-scene bullet fragments shows they may have been misinterpreted.

"It basically shatters what some people call the best physical evidence around," said chemist Pat Grant, director of the lab's Forensic Science Center.

Grant and Livermore Lab metallurgist Erik Randich found that the chemical "fingerprints" used to identify which bullets the fragments came from are actually more like run-of-the-mill tire tracks than one-of-a-kind fingerprints.

"I've spoken with people on both sides of the conspiracy divide and there's no question but that (Randich and Grant's) work is going to be very difficult, if not outright impossible, to refute," said Gary Aguilar, a San Francisco ophthalmologist and single-bullet skeptic who has studied the Kennedy assassination for more than a decade. "It looks impregnable."

The government's claim that Lee Harvey Oswald alone killed Kennedy spawned a vitriolic debate between conspiracy theorists and lone gunman supporters that rages to this day.

In 1964, the Warren Commission, established by President Lyndon B. Johnson to investigate the assassination, concluded that Oswald fired just three shots from the Texas School Book Depository in Dallas: The first missed entirely. The second passed through the president's neck, into Texas Governor John Connally's body under his right arm, out through his chest and then splintered his wrist and wounded his left thigh. The third fatally hit Kennedy in the head.

Single-bullet theory

Even though three bullets were involved, this scenario became known as the "single-bullet theory" because it requires the second bullet to account for all the nonfatal injuries to both Kennedy and Connally.

The injuries to Kennedy's neck and to Connally happened within a split second of each other. So either the injuries to both men came from a single bullet from Oswald or from at least two bullets from more than one shooter. Oswald's rifle couldn't have fired two shots in such rapid succession.

So in order for Oswald to be the lone gunman, it had to be a single bullet.



Skeptics and believers alike say the bullets amount to the most important piece of physical evidence for the single-bullet theory. Throwing it out is like removing a leg from a four-legged table.

"Warren Commission defenders consider this evidence central to the single-bullet theory," Aguilar said.

But Grant and Randich say the bullet lead analysis was faulty. Both Randich and Grant are forensic scientists at Livermore Lab but researched the JFK case on their own time. Their work is the latest chapter in an ongoing saga.

Lead impurities

In the immediate aftermath of the assassination, the FBI analyzed five bullet fragments recovered from the limousine, the governor's wrist, the president's brain and from a hospital stretcher.

The FBI used a technique known as "neutron activation" analysis to find the precise composition of the fragments. By determining the exact amounts of impurities in the lead, such as antimony and silver, they hoped to be able to tell which fragments came from the same bullet. But the FBI decided it couldn't draw any conclusions from the results.

In 1976, the U.S. House of Representatives formed an assassination committee to investigate the deaths of JFK and Martin Luther King Jr. The move was largely a response to hundreds of books, documentaries and magazine pieces questioning the government's version of the JFK assassination, as well as public outcry following the first airing of Abraham Zapruder's home movie of the assassination on the television show, "Good Night America."

The committee called in nuclear chemist Vincent Guinn, one of the world's foremost experts on neutron activation, to reanalyze the bits of bullet lead.

Unlike the FBI, Guinn drew a very clear conclusion. He said the antimony in the fragments clearly showed they all came from two, and only two, bullets of the type used by Oswald's gun, which supports the Warren Commission's lone gunman theory.

According to Guinn, one set of fragments from the president's brain and the limousine in front of the president had around .06 percent antimony, and all came from the bullet that killed JFK. The other set of fragments from the governor's wrist and a nearly intact bullet found on a stretcher at the hospital had closer to .08 percent antimony and were pieces of the infamous "single bullet."

Based on evidence including the bullet lead, the committee concluded in 1979 that both shots had come from Oswald's gun.

They did not, however, rule out the possibility of a conspiracy. In fact, they strongly suspected a second shooter was present that day, but based on Guinn's data, any second shooter had missed the target.

Or maybe not.

"It turns out that if you really analyze the results correctly, then the results are wrong," said Grant.

Fatal flaw

Randich and Grant's study grew out of work Randich did in 2002 that exposed a fatal flaw in the FBI's use of bullet-lead evidence to connect suspects with crime scenes in thousands of criminal cases during the past three decades.

The FBI claimed that like a fingerprint, each batch of lead has a unique chemical signature, so the specific amounts of impurities in a lead bullet could match it with other bullets from the same batch. For example, if bullets at a suspect's house were found to have the same impurity signature as a bullet or fragment found at a murder scene, it was treated as evidence tying the suspect to the crime.

Randich's training as a metallurgist told him there was something wrong with this reasoning.

"I realized these people could put my sons in jail with bogus science," he said. "I thought I ought to do something about it."

By analyzing years of data kept by lead smelters, Randich found that batches are not unique, and bullets from different batches of bullets poured months or years apart could have the same chemical signature. And bullets poured from the start of a batch could differ slightly, but measurably, from those at the end.

He has testified in about a dozen cases. Because of his work, courts now reject bullet-lead analysis and the FBI no longer uses it as evidence.

JFK case problems

The JFK case has similar problems.

According to Guinn, the type of bullets used by Oswald happened to have highly variable amounts of antimony.

Guinn said the variation between bullets of this type was so great that he could use it to tell individual bullets apart, even from the same batch of lead.

Randich and Grant say that assumption is dead wrong.

They analyzed the same type of bullets and showed that within a single bullet, there is a significant variation in impurities on a microscopic scale. The range of concentrations of impurities in each bullet is large enough to make small fragments from different parts of the same bullet have very different chemical fingerprints.

Some of the fragments in the JFK case are so small that the differences in antimony could be explained entirely by this microscopic variation, instead of by differences between bullets, they said. Randich and Grant's study was published in July in the Journal of Forensic Sciences.

One to five bullets

"We don't know if there were two bullets," said Randich. "There could have been two bullets, but the lead composition data shows there could be anywhere from one to five bullets."

The bullet found on the stretcher is missing some lead, but not enough to account for all the other fragments. So there had to be more than one bullet. But Grant and Randich say there is no way to tell how many more, at least from the bullet lead.

Losing Guinn's bullet-lead evidence is a major blow to the single-bullet theory.

That evidence "knits together the core physical evidence into an airtight case against Lee Oswald," according to a 2004 paper by Larry Sturdivan and Ken Rahn in an issue of Journal of Radioanalytical and Nuclear Chemistry that celebrated Vincent Guinn after his death. "It is, thus, the key to resolving the major controversies in the JFK assassination and putting the matter to rest," the paper said.

Rahn, an atmospheric chemist recently retired from the University of Rhode Island, stands by this statement and Guinn's research despite Randich and Grant's study.

He says he believes it is possible that microscopic variation occurs within bullets of this type, but Grant and Randich can't say for sure whether it happened in the JFK bullets because they didn't analyze those particular fragments.

Rahn thinks it is far more likely the fragments fell into two distinct groups, one with .06 percent antimony and the other with .08 percent, because they came from two distinct bullets.

This fits the Warren Commission's conclusion that Oswald was the lone shooter, and two of the three bullets he shot hit the occupants of the president's limousine, Rahn said.

Grant counters that the two groups of bullet fragments might not actually be that distinct. The margin of error associated with the antimony analysis means that, statistically, the concentrations are too close to separate into groups.

Although Randich and Grant's research doesn't solve the Kennedy assassination, it certainly does weaken the case for a lone gunman.

"In recent years, the (bullet) fragment evidence has become one of the key struts supporting the single-bullet theory," Aguilar said. "Randich and Grant have knocked this slat out from under the theory."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Betsy Mason covers science and the national laboratories.
*

In 1963 a considerable amount of 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano ammunition was available as military surplus. Some of it was manufactured prior to WW1.

The rounds used to shoot JFK was Italian military surplus ball ammunition and depending upon which Italian arsenal this stuff came from there may well be a variation in the lead filler. This surplus ammunition was kept sorted to origin about as good as pinto beans.
tomhye
QUOTE(Marine @ Aug 21 2006, 12:41 PM)
In 1963 a considerable amount of 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano ammunition was available as military surplus.  Some of it was manufactured prior to WW1. 

The rounds used to shoot JFK was Italian military surplus ball ammunition and depending upon which Italian arsenal this stuff came from there may well be a variation in the lead filler.  This surplus ammunition was kept sorted to origin about as good as pinto beans.
*



But the odds are greatly in favor of them being from the same box which would indicate them being from the same part of the same batch. I think both sides are overstating their case (or at least the synopsis does), it removes the certainty but doesn't refute anything else. In other words a key element is no longer ironclad.
MrJim


It was obviously a "cruise bullet" which used an on-board computer program and GPS to zero in on both men.


Oh, except there was no entrance wound at the back of the neck where the picture shows the bullet entering. There was a bullet hole found 5 inches below the base of the neck. Maybe Oswald was really in the trunk of the limo shooting upward.
MrJim
[quote=MrJim,Aug 21 2006, 03:12 PM]


That sure is a pretty bullet for having smashed a 2 inch section of rib, then shattering a wrist bone. Fragments? I don't see any fragments missing at all.
Marine
QUOTE(tomhye @ Aug 21 2006, 01:54 PM)
But the odds are greatly in favor of them being from the same box which would indicate them being from the same part of the same batch. I think both sides are overstating their case (or at least the synopsis does), it removes the certainty but doesn't refute anything else. In other words a key element is no longer ironclad.
*

Not at all. I have a Mannlicher Carcano I purchased through the mail when I was 12 years old, that would have been in 1962. Yes, the gun laws used to be that lax.

I still have and keep it above the door in the barn to shoot coyotes with.

I paid $6.95 for it in 1962 and for an extra $2.50 they would send along 100 rounds of Italian military surplus ammunition. The ammunition had stamped on the head of each case it's year of manufacture and the arsenal in which it was manufactured. That 100 rounds was manufactured in three different arsenals in just about every year between 1912 and 1943.

One more interesting note about that Italian Mannlicher Carcano I bought when I was 12 years old. I bought it from a gun dealer namer Walter Craig, the same fellow who sold a sporterized version of the same rifle to Lee Harvey Oswald.
jimiray
QUOTE
One more interesting note about that Italian Mannlicher Carcano I bought when I was 12 years old. I bought it from a gun dealer namer Walter Craig, the same fellow who sold a sporterized version of the same rifle to Lee Harvey Oswald.


Are you really serious Marine ?

ohmy.gif
Silver
Must...resist...temptation to post in thread.
Magmak1
QUOTE(Silver @ Aug 21 2006, 06:06 PM)
Must...resist...temptation to post in thread.
*



Take one or two deeeep abdominal breaths....
tomhye
QUOTE(jimiray @ Aug 21 2006, 02:05 PM)
Are you really serious Marine ?

ohmy.gif
*



Mail order wasn't that widespread among smaller businesses until a few years later, it actually isn't that surprising to me.
Silver
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Aug 21 2006, 02:07 PM)
Take one or two deeeep abdominal breaths....
*


shifty.gif
progressivephoenix
doh.gif You shouldn't have said that. Now you are going to be added to the list of possible second gunmen.

QUOTE(Marine @ Aug 21 2006, 12:52 PM)
One more interesting note about that Italian Mannlicher Carcano I bought when I was 12 years old.  I bought it from a gun dealer namer Walter Craig, the same fellow who sold a sporterized version of the same rifle to Lee Harvey Oswald.
*
jimiray
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Aug 21 2006, 03:11 PM)
doh.gif You shouldn't have said that. Now you are going to be added to the list of possible second gunmen.
*


roflmbo.gif

He does live close to Dallas too.
Marine
QUOTE(jimiray @ Aug 21 2006, 03:05 PM)
Are you really serious Marine ?

ohmy.gif
*


This place had three different WW1 rifles all for $6.99 each. Seems like to third one was something like a Bulgarian blunderbus piece of junk, I can't remember for sure.

When I order the rifle I wanted a French Lebel. I though of it as buying a piece of history. It turned out the Lebel was out of stock

I was really disappointed when they shipped this thing. A year later I was stunned when I learned Oswald used a sporterized version of the same rifle to kill the president sold by the same dealer.

The Italian Carcano is really a pretty good rifle, the only really bad thing about it is if you get a pierced primer it will drive the bolt back in to your face causing a severe contusion. The timing of Oswald's shots is entirely feasible.
Marine
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Aug 21 2006, 03:11 PM)
doh.gif You shouldn't have said that. Now you are going to be added to the list of possible second gunmen.
*

I got an air tight alibi though, I was in Mr. Askews 7th grade math class when it happened in Tyler Texas, 70 miles away.
jimiray
QUOTE
The timing of Oswald's shots is entirely feasible.


Actually I think I could have done that too.
But I'm a hell of a shot with about any gun. ok.gif
One shot one kill whistling.gif
Marine
QUOTE(Marine @ Aug 21 2006, 03:15 PM)
This place had three different WW1 rifles all for $6.99 each.  Seems like to third one was something like a Bulgarian blunderbus piece of junk, I can't remember for sure.

When I order the rifle I wanted a French Lebel.  I though of it as buying a piece of history.  It turned out the Lebel was out of stock

I was really disappointed when they shipped this thing.  A year later I was stunned when I learned Oswald used a sporterized version of the same rifle to kill the president sold by the same dealer.

The Italian Carcano is really a pretty good rifle, the only really bad thing about it is if you get a pierced primer it will drive the bolt back in to your face causing a severe contusion.  The timing of Oswald's shots is entirely feasible.
*

Oh, and the picture of this Carcano; the cleaning rod is missing under the barrel, mine has the cleaning rod.
tomhye
QUOTE(Marine @ Aug 21 2006, 02:17 PM)
I got an air tight alibi though, I was in Mr. Askews 7th grade math class when it happened in Tyler Texas, 70 miles away.
*



But if you put that together correctly it's 707! Coincidence? I THINK NOT!
graham4anything
Why was Bush41 in Dallas that day though?
Especially as he wasn't in the loop acording to him, yet there is proof he was in Dallas that day.
jimiray
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Aug 21 2006, 03:23 PM)
Why was Bush41 in Dallas that day though?
Especially as he wasn't in the loop acording to him, yet there is proof he was in Dallas that day.
*


Hey dude......he wasn't in the loop the day Ronald Reagan got shot either.
No-One knew where he was for several hours. whistling.gif
Marine
QUOTE(tomhye @ Aug 21 2006, 03:20 PM)
But if you put that together correctly it's 707! Coincidence? I THINK NOT!
*

Yeah, I was such a non political "expletive deleted" back then I thought it was cool we got a couple of days off from school.

I only watched part of the news coverage, my little brother and I were more interested in building a new treehouse instead of soaking in a once in a lifetime historical event.
graham4anything
QUOTE(jimiray @ Aug 21 2006, 05:27 PM)
Hey dude......he wasn't in the loop the day Ronald Reagan got shot either.
No-One knew where he was for several hours.  whistling.gif
*


planning his coup'd'etat is where he was while Haig said he was in charge.

Hinkley is after all, a relative of very close friends of the Bush family
How much money was he given to do the deed? Or was he another manchurian candidate?
jimiray
QUOTE(Marine @ Aug 21 2006, 03:29 PM)
Yeah, I was such a non political "expletive deleted" back then I thought it was cool we got a couple of days off from school.

I only watched part of the news coverage, my little brother and I were more interested in building a new treehouse instead of soaking in a once in a lifetime historical event.
*


Marine.....you do realize you have revealed your old age to us right?

roflmbo.gif

Just messin with ya laugh.gif

I'm not too far behind you.
progressivephoenix
We have no proof that Marine was even in Tyler that day. The Warren Commission deliberately failed to interview either Marine or Mr. Askew, despite persistent rumors that both were in Dallas on "a field trip."

QUOTE(jimiray @ Aug 21 2006, 01:33 PM)
Marine.....you do realize you have revealed your old age to us right?

roflmbo.gif

Just messin with ya  laugh.gif

I'm not too far behind you.
*
tomhye
QUOTE(Marine @ Aug 21 2006, 02:29 PM)
Yeah, I was such a non political "expletive deleted" back then I thought it was cool we got a couple of days off from school.

I only watched part of the news coverage, my little brother and I were more interested in building a new treehouse instead of soaking in a once in a lifetime historical event.
*



AHA! TREEHOUSE! Increasing field of fire!

Actually I'm convinced there were multiple shooters (mainly via the Zapruder film and hospital reports) and that Oswald was an agent (the only way his return from Russia would be allowed) and consider a conspiracy probable (but there can be multiple shooters without a conspiracy). I just don't think most of the facts and "facts" mean what people say they do.
jimiray
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Aug 21 2006, 03:33 PM)
planning his coup'd'etat is where he was while Haig said he was in charge.

Hinkley is after all, a relative of very close friends of the Bush family
How much money was he given to do the deed? Or was he another manchurian candidate?
*


Correction graham..they are related period........ Bush/Hinkley.

Remember that geneology thing I showed you a long time ago ?
jimiray
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Aug 21 2006, 03:36 PM)
We have no proof that Marine was even in Tyler that day.  The Warren Commission deliberately failed to interview either Marine or Mr. Askew, despite persistent rumors that both were in Dallas on "a field trip."
*


Your right PP, there is no proof of what Marine says. Hmmmmm..........i'm starting to get suspicious now too.

Marine ...could you provide us with a report card or something? Note from your teacher proving you weren't in Dallas that day?

laugh.gif
Marine
QUOTE(jimiray @ Aug 21 2006, 03:33 PM)
Marine.....you do realize you have revealed your old age to us right?

roflmbo.gif

Just messin with ya  laugh.gif

I'm not too far behind you.
*

No secret, I was about as dumb a 13 year old boy you could find on the face of the earth when JFK was shot.

I can still vividly remember Mr. Askew coming into class with tears streaming down his face. "THE PRESIDENTS BEEN SHOT".

They put the radio on over the P.A. system until they announce the president was dead. At that point they announced school was closing for the day.

Back in those days you either walked, rode your bike, or rode the bus to school and most near everyone's Mom was a stay at home Mom. I rode my bike home and my Mom thought I was skipping school until I got her to turn the TV on.
progressivephoenix
Mr ASkew is part of it, so a note or report card would be unreliable. We need a notarized letter from the Hall Monitor.


QUOTE(jimiray @ Aug 21 2006, 01:40 PM)
Your right PP, there is no proof of what Marine says. Hmmmmm..........i'm starting to get suspicious now too.

Marine ...could you provide us with a report card or something? Note from your teacher proving you weren't in Dallas that day?

laugh.gif
*
Marine
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Aug 21 2006, 03:45 PM)
Mr ASkew is part of it, so a note or report card would be unreliable. We need a notarized letter from the Hall Monitor.
*

Oh, we had a cool hall monitor.

He was actually the custodian and he used to work as one of the Indians you see getting shot and falling off the horses in the old western movies.

I bet it came natural falling off horses to him since he was drunk most of the time.
jimiray
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Aug 21 2006, 03:45 PM)
Mr ASkew is part of it, so a note or report card would be unreliable. We need a notarized letter from the Hall Monitor.
*


roflmbo.gif

PP..........thanks for cheering me up laugh.gif

Things have been binding on me lately and I need the humor. stars smiliey.gif
jimiray
QUOTE(Marine @ Aug 21 2006, 03:51 PM)
Oh, we had a cool hall monitor. 

He was actually the custodian and he used to work as one of the Indians you see getting shot and falling off the horses in the old western movies. 

I bet it came natural falling off horses to him since he was drunk most of the time.
*


roflmbo.gif roflmbo.gif roflmbo.gif

Woops ! on edit ........shouldn't have said that. I just remembered something about saying that stuff. Even if I am one doh.gif
Marine
QUOTE(jimiray @ Aug 21 2006, 03:55 PM)
roflmbo.gif  roflmbo.gif  roflmbo.gif

Never trust a drunk Indian.............I'm part Indian too. laugh.gif
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When they hired our janitor the principal introduced him to the whole school and told us all about how he used to work in the movies as a stunt Indian.

You have got to realize in the early 60's in a small East Texas school district this was a really big deal to have someone who had actually been in a real movie working for you. The second most exciting thing to do in town was going down to the gas station and watching them charge a battery.

I don't remember our janitor's name but I remember his face. I still look to see if I can recognize him when I watch some old western movie. I haven't seen him yet.

There was nothing Indian about this guy.

Don't worry about it, my wife is 100% Indian and she knows her share of drunk ones.
MrJim
Here's a riddle for you:

Why is the JFK Assassination and the WTC disaster very similar?

Answer:

In both cases, much of the vital evidence was quickly destroyed before it could be inspected and investigated.

JFK's brain is missing.

Most of the "black boxes" are missing

The limo JFK was riding in was immediately cleaned, stripped and refurbished, with all the evidence being destroyed.

The WTC steel was immediately shipped to Japan where it was melted down and put into a million different consumer products.

Etc. etc.

Uh oh -- the only two other people in the thread are Marine and GOPGuy. I'm outta here before I get beat up.
jimiray
QUOTE
The second most exciting thing to do in town was going down to the gas station and watching them charge a battery


Damn man.....that's the most exciting thing to do around here in my town today.

doh.gif .
jimiray
QUOTE(MrJim @ Aug 21 2006, 04:09 PM)
Here's a riddle for you:

Why is the JFK Assassination and the WTC disaster very similar?

Answer:

In both cases, much of the vital evidence was quickly destroyed before it could be inspected and investigated.

JFK's brain is missing.

Most of the "black boxes" are missing

The limo JFK was riding in was immediately cleaned, stripped and refurbished, with all the evidence being destroyed.

The WTC steel was immediately shipped to Japan where it was melted down and put into a million different consumer products.

Etc. etc.

Uh oh -- the only two other people in the thread are Marine and GOPGuy.  I'm outta here before I get beat up.
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Everything you said was correct Mr. Jim.
Don't worry about Marine and GOP guy . They'll only beat your ass in a virtual sense so it really doesn't leave visible scars or anything.

laugh.gif
jeffmoskin
QUOTE(tomhye @ Aug 21 2006, 01:37 PM)
AHA! TREEHOUSE! Increasing field of fire!

  Actually I'm convinced there were multiple shooters (mainly via the Zapruder film and hospital reports) and that Oswald was an agent (the only way his return from Russia would be allowed) and consider a conspiracy probable (but there can be multiple shooters without a conspiracy). I just don't think most of the facts and "facts" mean what people say they do.
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You are on the right track, tom.

here is a book for you:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159797048...ie=UTF8&s=books
MrJim
QUOTE
You are on the right track, tom.

here is a book for you:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159797048...ie=UTF8&s=books


Oh, Garrison. I saw a movie about him once. It was called "JFK" or something like that.
jimiray
QUOTE(MrJim @ Aug 21 2006, 05:00 PM)
Oh, Garrison.  I saw a movie about him once.  It was called "JFK" or something like that.
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Oh yeah !
I'm making my own movie see..........
Gonna call it "41"
MrJim
QUOTE
Oh yeah !
I'm making my own movie see..........
Gonna call it "41"


Then I will put out my book called "42", which is the answer to everything.
tomhye
QUOTE(MrJim @ Aug 21 2006, 04:09 PM)
Then I will put out my book called "42", which is the answer to everything.
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Then I'll put out my own book "4" to show how far back the conspiracy REALLY goes!
tomhye
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Aug 21 2006, 03:56 PM)
You are on the right track, tom.

here is a book for you:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159797048...ie=UTF8&s=books
*



I see too many ways to interpret what Garrison uncovered, I don't think any specific theory is vindicated by what is currently public.
graham4anything
Then 43 will have a movie and blame 42

but it is 41, make a million jokes and a million and one times it is 41
a million and one Iran-Contra's will tell you it is so
progressivephoenix
Your welcome!

QUOTE(jimiray @ Aug 21 2006, 01:53 PM)
roflmbo.gif

PP..........thanks for cheering me up laugh.gif

Things have been binding on me lately and I need the humor. stars smiliey.gif
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Marine
QUOTE(jimiray @ Aug 21 2006, 04:27 PM)
Everything you said was correct Mr. Jim.
Don't worry about Marine and GOP guy . They'll only beat your ass in a virtual sense so it really doesn't leave visible scars or anything.

laugh.gif
*

And I only do it when someone, in my opinion, deserves it.

Where'd everyone go?
jeffmoskin
QUOTE(tomhye @ Aug 21 2006, 03:58 PM)
I see too many ways to interpret what Garrison uncovered, I don't think any specific theory is vindicated by what is currently public.
*

What Mellen does is look through the telescope backwards. She says that the key to the mystery is the cover-up. Only the CIA could have covered it up. As to who did it, probably some mob hit men (plural). But not only was Oswald on the FBI payroll (and also CIA earlier), but they had several "Oswalds" floating around just waiting to be scooped up in case this one didn't work out. When Oswald claimed he was a patsy, he was probably telling the truth.
Silver
Have you seen JFK 2? Trippy stuff in there.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9...304741&q=JFK+II
Arneoker
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Aug 21 2006, 05:23 PM)
Why was Bush41 in Dallas that day though?
Especially as he wasn't in the loop acording to him, yet there is proof he was in Dallas that day.
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A lot of people were in Dallas that day.

Why was I in Venice, Florida while Mohammed Atta was going to flight school there?
Silver
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 23 2006, 08:21 AM)
A lot of people were in Dallas that day. 

Why was I in Venice, Florida while Mohammed Atta was going to flight school there?
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Didn't Bush lie about being there that day, or was that Nixon? I know one or both lied about whether they were there that day.
Arneoker
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Aug 21 2006, 05:45 PM)
Mr ASkew is part of it, so a note or report card would be unreliable. We need a notarized letter from the Hall Monitor.
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The hall monitor was related to Bush. That is why Marine and Mr. Askew were selected, they knew that the hall monitor would provide them an alibi.
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