http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-10-11-voa41.cfm

"VOICE OF AMERICA

Bush Vows US Will Remain in Iraq, Dismisses Report on War Deaths
By VOA News
11 October 2006

President Bush has vowed that the United States will remain in Iraq, saying a premature withdrawal would embolden the terrorists.



At a news conference at the White House Wednesday, Mr. Bush acknowledged recent violence in Iraq, including the killing of the brother of Iraq's Sunni Arab vice president, who was shot dead in his home earlier in the week.

The president also dismissed a study published Wednesday that estimated some 655,000 Iraqis have died as a result of the war.

He said he does not consider the report credible, and that the methodology used is "pretty well discredited."

The study in the British journal, The Lancet, says about 600,000 of the 655,000 Iraqis died from violence, mostly gunfire. Researchers also found a small increase in deaths from disease and other causes.

The figure is far higher than other estimates. President Bush estimated in December that about 30,000 people have died as a result of the war.

When asked if he still stood by his estimate, Mr. Bush said he stands by the figure that "a lot" of innocent people have died in the conflict.

Wednesday in Geneva, the top United Nations humanitarian aid official, Jan Egeland, said the violence in Iraq is going unchecked, claiming about 100 lives per day.

The study in The Lancet was conducted by Iraqi and U.S. researchers who interviewed residents of more than 1,800 randomly selected households at 47 sites in Iraq. They compared the mortality rates to pre-war estimates.

In 2004, the same group published an estimate of 100,000 deaths in the first 18 months after the U.S-led invasion of Iraq."

Some information for this report was provided by AP and Reuters.

If Dubya disagrees with the statistical methodolgy who are we to argue?

I kind of think its in the middle; the UN estimates 100 a day. thats roughly 36,000 per year. We have been there 4 years thats 144,000 over the last 4 years.

I think that is even a little on the high side, considering that only recently violent crime has been escalating in Baghdad.

How many died during Saddam's era, his war with Iran, against the Kurds? I'm not trying to dispell conclusions just broadening the topic.

It's not uncommon for some Iraqi's to settle disputes.... unrelated to politics or religion violently. If one man shoots another man for flirting with his sister... whose fault is that? If two men begin to argue over a fender bender and one pulls a gun... whose fault is that? A husband killing his wife for indescressions. etc.. etc..

I was witness to the after math of these incidents at the same level as those I would consider to be related to the war.

Of course not all the violence can be attributed to domestic disputes, but on average these things happened more frequently then say New York City.

I agree with your approach but add the caveat that there are too many variables to even make a good guess. There are areas where our presence is minimal so those are a blind guess and the amount of underreporting is unknowable. I agree the 665,000 is probably high, but the 30,000 is absurdly low.

Well, maybe if y'all read the latest pronouncement from al Qaida it might change your opinion.

http://www.centcom.mil/sites/uscentcom1/Wh...PageView=Shared

In the name of God, praise be to God, and may peace and prayers be upon the Messenger of God, his family, companions, and allies.

Muslim brothers everywhere, peace be upon you and the mercy of God and His blessings.

The murderer and spiller of Muslim blood, Bush, has stated that he has secret prisons, in which he holds the dangerous leaders of the group of Qa'idat al-Jihad [Al-Qa'ida of jihad], including the mujahid brother Khalid al-Shaykh Muhammad, may God free him, and he has stated that during the three years after Khalid al-Shaykh Muhammad's arrest, the interrogators have been able to get from Khalid al-Shaykh Muhammad valuable information which has helped the Crusaders to kill and arrest a number of leaders of Al-Qa'ida. I want to ask this lying failure: Who are those leaders of Al-Qa'ida whose killing or capture was facilitated by the information extracted from Khalid al-Shaykh Muhammad? And I say to him: You lying failure, what is the size of your losses after the capture of Khalid al-Shaykh Muhammad, may God free him?

Bush, you deceitful charlatan, three and a half years have passed since you captured Khalid al-Shaykh Muhammad, so how have you found us during this time? Losing and surrendering? Or, by the grace of God, attacking, seeking martyrdom, advancing, and injuring you on a daily basis. The strikes of the mujahidin deprived you of the pleasure of quenching your thirst for revenge with the capture of our champions, those who repeat what [Islamic poet] Abu-Firas [al-Hamadani] said:

I have been captured, although my
Friends are not defenseless in war
Nor is my horse a foal
Or, its master unskilled
But if the elimination
Of a man is decreed Then neither earth
Nor sea can save him
And my friends said
Either fight or death.

So I said they are two things
The sweetest of which is bitter.
But I will go to that
In which there is no shame
And enough for you are two things,
The best of which is captivity.
They say to me,
You've sold safety for death.
So, I said:
By God I have not suffered loss.
And will death abandon
Me for an hour
If captivity does not abandon me?
Death is loss, so choose that
Which preserves your memory
For a man has not dies as long
As his memory is preserved.

And I tell him: You lying failure: Why can't you be brave at least once in your life and inform your nation of the disasters, which your forces are facing in Afghanistan and Iraq? Why don't you tell them how many million citizens of America and its allies you intend to kill in search of the imaginary victory and in breathless pursuit of the mirage towards which you are driving your people's sons in order to increase your profits? Can't you be honest at least once in your life, and admit that you are a deceitful liar, who intentionally deceived your nation, when you drove them to war in Iraq under the pretext of the presence of nuclear weapons there and under the pretext of Al-Qa'ida's connections with Saddam Husayn, following which evidence proved that you intentionally lied and misled? And do you have the courage to stand in front of your people and tell your nation that you lied to them and drove them -- and continued to drive them -- to terrible things for the sake of stupid fantasies?

And I tell him: You frivolous charlatan, if the arrest of Khalid al-Shaykh Muhammad, may God free him, has helped you in the war on terror, why then are your forces retreating in secret from the south and east of Afghanistan and handing over their tasks to the NATO forces, which are screaming for help due to the horribleness of what is happening to them at the hands of the Taliban and Al-Qa'ida?

I tell him that if arresting Khalid al-Shaykh Muhammad, may God set him free, enabled you to deal painful blows to Al-Qa'ida, why then your troops are making quick arrangements for withdrawal from Iraq? I also tell him that Khalid al-Shaykh Muhammad, may God set him free, has hurt you thou sands of times more than you hurt him.

Abu-Firas says:

They boast of removing my clothes
while my clothes are red with their blood
and a sword whose blade broke in them
and a butt of a spear whose head is destroyed in their chests.

Khalid al-Shaykh Muhammad is a soldier of Islam who has been fighting its enemy; first the Russians, and then the Americans, for more than 20 years.

I also tell him that Khalid al-Shaykh Muhammad is the leader of the march, the pioneer of an awakening, and the vanguard of a nation, and he has left behind him thousands others who have learned from him or those who learned from those who learned from him and who take their example his life story and his continuous sacrifices and giving in the path of God so that the word of God be the highest and the word of the unbelievers be the lowest.

I also tell him that what you have committed against Khalid al-Shaykh Muhammad and the other Muslim captives in your prisons and the jails of your slaves in Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan, and elsewhere is not a secret to anyone and we are a people who do not tolerate oppression and we do not abandon our revenge until our chests are healed of those who aggressed against us. By the grace of God, we are seeking to extract revenge on behalf of Islam and Muslims from you, your soldiers, and your allies. So be patient if you can when you face the horrors of war because we, with God's help, will tolerate it.

Al-Barudi [an Egyptian poet] may God have mercy on his soul said:
When the people call on each other,
And the spears cross and war rages on,
When the people want to flee from death
And the horses chests heave,
And when the blows become severe,
And when the empty earth turns with us
As if we have drunk of a glass from which no one awakes,
I tolerate it until its sky becomes clear
And I am patient when misfortune strikes.

Bush, you deceitful charlatan: You have captured Ramzi Yusuf, Umar Abd-al-Rahman, Wali Khan, Ibn al-Shaykh, Ramzi Bin-al-Shibah, Khalid al-Shaykh Muhammad, Abu-al-Faraj al-Libi, and hundreds of Islam's mujahidin and heroes in your war against Islam which you call the war on terror. And your agents in the Arabian Peninsula, Yemen, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan have captured thousands of the youth and soldiers of Islam. You have let them taste various types of torture at the hands of your tormentors and agents. But, by the grace of God, we are taking revenge on their behalf on a daily basis from your soldiers and the soldiers of your allies and agents in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, the Arabian Peninsula, and all Muslim countries from Indonesia to Morocco and even in your own country every day. The horror of fighting only increases our determination to sacrifice and give more of ourselves in the path of God.

Abd-al-Rahman Bin-Hassan Bin Thabit [an old Arab poet], may God be pleased with him, said:

I am from honorable people who increase in their courage with the severity of events.

Bush, you deceitful charlatan: Be aware that the liberation of our captives is a debt on our shoulders, which we must fulfill, with God's help and power. You should know, O deceitful charlatan, that you are not facing individuals or organizations but you are facing the Muslim nation in which the spirit of jihad flows and which rejects humiliation under Zionist-Crusader arrogance. So are you able to kill or capture the nation of Islam. Therefore, stop bluffing by saying that you have captured this one or killed that one because your soldiers who have been killed are filling the fields in Iraq and Afghanistan and their colleagues are fleeing from death to death by committing suicide out of despair.

[Here the setting changes: Al-Zawahiri now appears in a white robe and a white turban with a light brown cloth covering the background. Also, in this part, there are no English subtitles]

The second issue that I want to talk about is the statement made by the pope of the Vatican, who blasphemed God and insulted the reverend Prophet [Muhammad], peace and prayers be upon him, and what this charlatan said; that Islam is unreasonable. The pope with his contradictive remarks has pretended to have forgotten that his Christianity cannot be accepted by a sound mind because it includes superstitions like the trinity, the crucifixion, redemption, the original sin, the infallibility of the pope, and the church's forgiveness of sins. He forgot that the book he deems holy does not have an authentic source and did not descend on Jesus, peace be upon him. Rather, it is about what was written about Jesus, peace be upon him, without specifically identifying its writers, translators, or original texts. After the bishops selected parts of the book and accepted them as legal, they considered other parts as illegal, without having clear justifications or intelligible proofs for this.

O our Muslim nation, these acts of insolence did not come single. Rather, they were part of a series of insults targeting Islam, such as the writings of Salman Rushdie, the honored guest of the White House, France prohibiting wearing scarves in schools, US desecration of the Holy Koran, the US pressure to hold Wafa'i Qustantin and her sisters to the vaults of torture in the monasteries that are protected by the US-Crusader influence, and the cartoons insulting the character of the reverend messenger, peace and prayers be upon him. All of these insults coincide with the Crusade on Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, and Palestine, including the carpet bombing of villages, violation of the women's honor, torture, secret jails, and other forms of the dirty Crusader-Zionist series of the Crusader US campaign against Islam and Muslims.

The charlatan Benedict XVI reminds us of the speech delivered by his predecessor Pope Urban II in the 11th century in Claremont in France, in which he instigated the people of European to fight Muslims and wage Crusade wars because the pagan Muslims, the enemies of Christians, as he claimed, desecrate the grave of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him. He deliberately lied to the mob of the West and ignored the crystal-clear facts; namely, that Muslims are not pagan and that they eradicated paganism wherever they go. They are monotheists who worship the One and Only God who begot not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him. He also ignored the fact that Muslims cannot be enemies of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, because they believe in his prophecy and consider him an apostle messenger of inflexible purpose. They believe in the Bible that descended on him and believe in all God's prophets, messengers, and books.

The result of this charlatanism was Crusade wars that lasted for about two centuries and ended with the utter defeat upon the Crusader West.
Benedict XVI fabricated lies against us, but we respond to this insult by benevolence, inviting him and all Christians to Islam, religion of monotheism, which does not know trinity, the superstition of crucifixion, redemption, and incarnation. It is the religion the well-guarded book of which has not been distorted or changed and defies humans to create a book of its like.

However, if they insist on their failed Crusader war, let them have the same fate of Urban II and those who obeyed him and believed his lies.
The third issue that I want to talk about is the Crusader plan to send Crusader forces to Darfur, which is about to become a new field for the Crusader wars. O nation of Islam, rise to defend your land and sanctities against the aggression of the Crusaders who are using the cover of the United Nations. You will only be protected by a popular jihadist war which the mujahidin are undertaking.


As for the government of Khartoum, which conceded the south, is too week to defend Darfur after inciting wars and seditions in it. This government permits the impermissible, seeks its own interest, and ga rners spoils. How can a government of a defeated belief be steadfast in the face of the gravity of wars?

Is it not the government that had dissolved the popular defense forces so as to hand over the south to the US-Zionist influence? So it cannot be farther from leading popular jihad. So, honorable and noble people of Darfur, cling to your religion, and resolve your differences among yourselves. Do not allow the conniving and deceitful government of Khartoum or the anti-Islam Crusader West to intervene among you. Be prepared to fend off the Crusader campaign against you.

Our Muslim nation, at the end of my speech, I would like to emphasize a number of things to you:

First, you should realize the powerlessness of the governments in control of the Muslim land against the forces of Crusader invasion. These governments are suffering two kinds of impotence. The first is ideological, for they accepted the legitimacy of the Unit ed Nations, which is in violation of Islam. This organization obliges all those governments to maintain Israel's sovereignty and territorial integrity, for it is a member, like them, to the United Nations. They also suffer behavioral impotence, for they agreed to remain in power through submission to the will of the Crusader West and allowing it to occupy the Muslim land in Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, and Palestine.

Second, you should realize the impotence of many resounding names who install themselves as leaders of the Muslim masses. I will specifically mention three categories: The category of those who are ideologically-defeated, those who accepted the governance of the masses instead of the governance of the Shari'ah [Islamic law]. They acknowledged the legitimacy of the corrupt rulers and accepted the national bond instead of Muslim brotherhood and the Sykes-Picot borders instead of the Islamic caliphate. They entered Kabul aboard America's tanks, under the cover of its Cross, and the protection of its bombers. They participated in the councils of the occupation, and then in the rigged elections and referendums in Iraq and Afghanistan. The second category is the category of the deceptive merchants of religion, those who colluded with the US occupation of Iraq, before, during, and after the invasion. They also participated in defending the US occupiers and waged a war against the Muslims and mujahdin in the name of Islam in the service of the US master. The third category is the category of the clerics of beggary, those who sold their religion for salaries and posts. They approved of recognizing Israel and reconciliation with it. They sold off Palestine, and installed their rulers as pious followers of God. They labeled those who confront their corruption as being extremists and infidels.

Third, we should renounce all the resolutions and treaties of capitulation, beginning with the resolution on the partition of Palestine, and ending with Resolution 1701, passing through the Camp David and Oslo accords. All these are resolutions and treaties that hand over the land of Islam to its enemies, recognize the legitimacy of the Zionist entity, and incriminate those who wage jihad against it.

Fourth, the Muslim nation should wage a popular jihadist war against the Crusader campaign. What the enemies of Islam fear most is the popular jihadist war.

Fifth, the Muslim nation should realize that Afghanistan and Iraq are the most two important fields for confronting the contemporary Crusader war. Therefore, the Muslim nation should support the mujahdin in these two countries with all its power. God, be He blessed, says: Those who believe, and adopt exile, and fight for the Faith, in the cause of Allah as well as those who give (them) asylum and aid,- these are (all) in very tru th the Believers: for them is the forgiveness of sins and a provision most generous. [Koranic verse]

Our last prayer is: Praise be to God, Lord of the universe. May God's peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his household, and companions.

What's it supposed to convince us of? Why should al Qaeda propaganda be accepted as factual? What does it have to do with the number of civilian deaths?

Marine's last post was almost like a coagulated one. Out of nowhere and signifying, what?

Well, the reason why we are fighting in Iraq is exactly because of that propaganda.

I'll make a bet with any taker. If we run away in Iraq within three years there will be another attack on America but this one will make 9/11 look like a little old lady's tea party.

Now based upon the past history of radical Islam I feel pretty safe making that statement; how confident are you it won't happen?

What's unclear to me is why some folks seem to believe that just because we're in Iraq, such an attack becomes less likely.

The whole idea that "we're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here," has always struck me as specious, in the extreme.

Oh, they are gonna hit us again on our soil, so that's a safe bet.
But it's gonna happen whether we are in Iraq or not.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say it might be less likely if we were out of Iraq and the ME.

Strawman argument, we can't leave Iraq because of the clusterf*ck we've created, if we had to be there we could've waited 2 weeks and gotten broad support, but that wouldn't have let Halliburton steal billions. I don't advocate precipitous withdrawal, but staying the course with policies that sacrifice our troops for illicit corporate gain doesn't cut it either.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1868137.ece

Army chief says British troops should be pulled out of Iraq

By Andy McSmith
Published: 13 October 2006
Tony Blair has received a public warning from the country's most senior military commander that the British presence in Iraq is threatening disaster there and in the UK.

General Sir Richard Dannatt, who took over as Chief of Staff six weeks ago, has warned the commitment to Iraq "exacerbates" problems faced by the UK in other parts of the world. He urged Mr Blair to give up his ambition to see a liberal democracy established in Iraq and settle for a "lower ambition", warning that British troops were not invited into Iraq and the time when they were welcome has passed.

He said: "Let's face it, the military campaign we fought in 2003 effectively kicked the door in. Whatever consent we may have had in the first place may have turned to tolerance and has largely turned to intolerance. I don't say that the difficulties we are experiencing round the world are caused by our presence in Iraq but undoubtedly our presence in Iraq exacerbates them."

... "

I will take that bet on condition that the money spent in Iraq is used to upgrade shipping and boarder entry. A liitle put in enforcement of expired visas.
The attack on the USA will come again and it could be internal like Oklahoma or external.
When a women is in the world she learns to be smart do to attacks and rape. If you do everything to protect yourself the odds are lessened but very few women unless they do not learn will be attacked again.
You can not stop a rapist but you can stop him from raping you.

Now I do not want to get into arguments about locking them all up or 2nd amendment. This is an analogy.
Be smart, not violent and war is not smart and is always very violent!

And then....why did we invade Iraq?

Oh, yeah, I remember now. It was because of those ficticious weapons of mass destruction wasn't it?

Let's see who was making that stuff up, eh?

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

"Iraq is a long way from here, but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

"There is no doubt that . Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
Sen. Carl Levin (d, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seing and developing weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years . We also should remember we have alway s underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockerfeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002,

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction. "[W]ithout question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he has continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ...
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.

hmmmm....

It would seem that politicians use wars for their own political purposes, regardless of party.