overstaying your visa = jumping the fence

Nation
Nearly Half of Illegal Immigrants Overstay Visas

Listen to this story... by Ted Robbins

All Things Considered, June 14, 2006 · Many immigrants who are in the United States illegally never jumped a fence, hiked through the desert or paid anyone to help them sneak into the country. According to a recent study, 45 percent of illegal immigrants came here on a legal visa, and then overstayed that visa. NPR's Ted Robbins reports on the massive visa overstay problem and what the federal government is doing to deal with this aspect of the illegal immigrant issue.

Enforce the Wage Laws first and they will stop being hired. Employers don't hire illegals because they love them. They love them because they will work for peanuts. Concentrate the law enforcement resources to the wage, benifits, and workplace safety issues and a large incentive will disappear. We might ask why this has not been done.

Don't hire the illegals and we will have a crash.

If they have no jobs: If they go home we are screwed. If they stay we are screwed. If we pay to jail and ship them back, we are screwed.
why? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Employers need to make a profit.

The costs of goods and services will fly through the roof.

they are ours. we need to face reality and deal with the issue with good old American ingenuity.

try posting a rational and workable plan on dealing with the immigration issue and I will fight alongside you to further it.

Manufacturing products and services down to a price by reducing wages is cut throat capitalism. There is a certain price we should be willing to pay for any product or service to sustain a middle class in this country. This goes for trade policy also. There should be a price tag for selling to the American market. Trade must be managed with this in mind, because there is no such thing as a "Free Market". Otherwise it is a race to the bottom and we will become Mexico. Make this clear to the vast majority and they will throw those people overboard who want to get richer by making you poorer.

maybe...but see: homedepot. walmart, etc.

The middle class flocked to their own death.

you are making speeches and laying out intellectual arguments...all fine and I agree with maybe all...if I'd read and ponder them, but i won't.

lay out a rational and realistic plan and we will have common sense to bring to common ground.

identity vs issues

politics 101

see: 1980 election and Reagan Democrats

What do you expect from me? This is a forum and words are all I have. A plan? I contact my congressman and my senators and urge them to address trade and wages. Short of running for office myself what can I do? What are you doing except venting your cynicism Dante? An educated electorate always was and is a must for a republic to survive. The main means of "education" (the News) has been co-opted by a corporatocracy. Nader's ideas involve mass demonstrations and voter and consumer organizations, but when it comes to actual political solutions he goes bonkers and weakens the only party that has a chance against the Oligarchs. Waiting for Mr. Goodbar Dante?

my cynicism? nope.

I am a realist with a streak of idealism.

You are posting some valid arguments but we started off talking about the issue of illegal immigrants. you mentioned a few popular responses that I find lacking substance.

words are all any of us have. they are all King and Kennedy...well, all that King had.

I asked you to lay out a rational and realistic plan....it is difficult to do. that is why I back the only one around yet...the Bush/Kennedy compromise.

give me better or give me [strike]death[/strike] legal status with penalties

Scared of illegal immigrants? And you have the audacity to accuse me of using language that inflames?

yes people say they are scared of them. it is a valid fear. it needs to be dealt with openly.

please, keep trying to make a coherent argument or keep trying to do whatever it is you imagine you are doing to me.

I have to get out in real life soon.

ltr

se you on the internet(S)

you are very funny

d.

Addressing Wage Standards and Trade issues (Tariffs) lacks substance? They are at the core of the problem. Xenophobia arises to promanence in people's minds when those issues are not addressed. Focusing the limited resources available to Law Enforcement on the core problem has a better chance of effecting visible change than building a wall with illegal labor to keep illegals out. Call it what you will but granting legal status to workers crossing the border or who are here already would be acceptable to many if they were not driving down american's wages and job opportunities. It is better than becoming a police state and attempting to deport 12-20 million people with brown skin.

Nobody is scared of illegal immigrants. They just want them to go home, so Americans can have a place to work for a decent wage.

I'm not scared of illegals. I just don't appreciate the fact that my fiance and I have had to jump through hoops for two years to get him here legally. I also don't appreciate the fact that our hospitals and social services are strained to the breaking point on legal citizen's tax dollars. There are approx 12 million now..where do we draw the line? Why have laws if it's okay to break them? I am scared of the MS-13 gang members coming over..at least 10-15,000 at last count. They enjoy slitting people's throats.

Short of shooting them all and or letting them die on the streets we have to try and deal with it as responsible citizens. Resentment should be directed at those who exploit the situation to get rich. We have the reality of a 1000+ mile border with Mexico. That is not the same issue we have with other countries. We must deal with that. Getting mad is ok as long as the target of the anger is at those who make it worse.

great post. so where do you stand n the current compromise bill?

but I would add it is our fault too. we buy the cheap goods and services because we couldn't afford them otherwise.

reality bites.

any bill will have to be a compromise.

I just wonder where people stand...what are their plans? do they have any rational and realistic ones or only anger and venom?

The current compromise bill does not sufficiently address the main issue. American Jobs and Wages. Protect that first, then deal with the rest. Law enforcement has only so many resources and to scatter it's focus will make it ineffectual. If all employers had to show they are paying state minimum wages and comparable benifits and could be subject to massive fines if caught underpaying workers, and if they saw it enforced across the board (including their competitors) they would be leary of hiring illegals because there would be no benifit and a big liability risk. As it stands now, occasional "raids" for illegals is just a dog and pony show. Likewise stress the trade issue as an answer to job outsourcing. Make it unprofitable to outsource jobs and don't apologize for it. Manage our Trade! Repeal or renegotiate NAFTA and all trade deals that weaken the American Middle Class and tell the promoters of the fantasy "Free Market" to go to hell!

They do all kinds of work and they will live in garages. They do lawn work, construction, food preparation, childcare, cleaning-residential and commercial, and all kinds of other work. They are survivors in our economy and many of them make it and send their kids to college. I live in a city that is 94% Hispanic and the fastest growing in Ventura County. I'm not scared of them. They are my friends.

Comfort labor or passing on the cost of ownership.
Unfortunately, nothing has change much since 1865.

Did I mention that my new students in August are all Spanish speakers in my English Language Development class? Teacher doesn't speak Spanish either. This is going to be interesting!

My grass is also going to get real high............................

They are not going to renogiate NAFTA. As we speak the state of Texas just approved funds for 80 toll roads going through our state, all in conjunction with the Trans Texas Corridor...the superhighway that will link Mexico to the rest of the country, for thousands of semi trucks full of merchandise to be shipped here. This is practically a done deal. The North American Union that the republicans keep trying to pooh-pah is in strategic stages of planning, under the taxpayers noses and without oversight. THIS is why the administration has no interest in doing anything about the illegal issue and why they want amnesty. It's one thing to be mad at the people who are causing the problems, it's another to be oblivious to what is really going on.

Smoke it if ya got it. (and don't have to drug test)

I restate my foundational belief - we are wasting time
in our divisions - we must secure the border now -
then the debate can get civil. The corporations are playing us!

The most resent cause is George Bush. The cause before then was Bill Clinton and before then,
Pappa Bush. They are accountable for their employees who didn't fix the problem.

Exactly, the laws are already on the books but they are not enforcing them. They are in fact breaking the law because they are not enforcing them.

So we agree essentially ENFORCE THOSE LAWS! Securing the border is for show because unless we line up the entire army and NG shoulder to shoulder from California to the Gulf of Mexico we cannot really secure the border. But I agree with IH in that the people must see something that LOOKS like it. Where I want focus is on what will actually make a difference, and that is enforcing the wage laws FIRST. Then the hiring illegals issue can begin to be addressed. Otherwise you are just going to have a bunch of raids that accomplish nothing and anyways you won't have the manpower because they will all be down standing guard at the wall.

If you add in some extra enforcement where illegals are hired for far less than citizens but still over minimum wage I'll agree, that's the starting point. After that our system for visas has to become more rational, to my mind any wanting longer visas to visit or taking a job where they're paid at least as much as a citizen would be (but are the preferred employee) should be pretty automatic.

Y'all jerk off all y'all want. Excuse me.

Americans see border enforcement as security.
We must adress this if we are to play.

We can talk to ourselves or deal with emotional issues
that drive elections. Y'all wanna win?

Then deal with secure borders. It is the issue. The issue.

I agree that what has and is occuring is bigger than just illegal immigration. We are being shafted for the benifit of the relative few. We have to turn this around. But we are facing big money concerns and they own the Mass Media. We'd better stop fighting about the smokescreen issues of race and culture and start focusing where the problem is. Corporate rule with the profit agenda and no sense of patriotism or national loyalty. Left unchecked it will turn us all into compliant herds of consumers and serfs.

OK, I will.


Right, but JUST border security doesn't secure the border, that requires reducing the incentive. The first step is border security that also strengthens enforcement against the companies making it worth paying coyotes , it's an adjunct that the public knows is needed for securing the border to work. The other issues get addressed later.

That can be addressed as an illegal hiring issue. Yes the penalty should be doubled for hiring illegals to pay them less than citizens. These issues taken in the right order will ease the solution. If securing the border means the people seeing fences and portal and border guard reinforcement then we should do as IH suggests if only to deal with mass emotions so real discussion can begin. The secure the border issue however should focus on Homeland Security. IE; Looking for people who are coming here to deliberately do us harm.

This hits the nail on the head. Whenever I start talking about the financial ramifications that illegal immigration has on our social system, someone like KT or 70slib respond by saying, "they support illegal immigration because illegal immigrants are nice people and hard workers." We're not even engaging in the same argument. Now, I have complained about the vatos who chill in front of 7-11 and harass people but I know that the majority of them are nice people and indeed hard workers. But, to be quite frank I don't give a rats ass. This isn't about the Mexican culture or who's nice or who works hard. This is about enforcing the laws that are on the books. This is about enforcing the will of the people.

I think a false premise is being used here first off. Stopping illegal immigration will not crash the economy. The economy survived anfd thrived long before illegals were here and many of those jobs that "no one wants to do" were getting done. Would prices of certain goods and services go up? Probably to varying degrees but I don't think it would crash the economy. If you want my ideas on what I would do in this situation it would be the following.

1. Build a fence and enforce it.
2. Tell Mexico to start patrolling their side of the border. Failure to do so would result in the loss of US aid of any kind.
3. Setup guest worker program
4. Fine all illegals currently in the country. If they canot full total of fine within 3 months they must leave the US and cannot reenter until fine is paid and 5 years has passed.
5. For all those who pay the fine, they can stay once they register, and can be put at the end of the line for permanents residency and jump through the hoops like anyone else.
6. Fine/prosecute anyone company that knowingly hires or protects illegals.
7. Set strick limits on the number of legal immigrants that can enter south of the broder.
8. Anyone convicted of a violent crime either in the US or in country of origin cannot enter the US via this program nor are the eligible for permanent residency.
9. It will be a federal crime for any state or local government to intentional fail to report or act upon the knowing existence of illegals under their jurisdiction.

Tom Hye:
"Right, but JUST border security doesn't secure the border, that requires reducing the incentive. The first step is border security that also strengthens enforcement against the companies making it worth paying coyotes , it's an adjunct that the public knows is needed for securing the border to work. The other issues get addressed later."

Just border security doesn't secure the border?
This is the sell that doesn't play. I love ya, but
what TF are ya talkin' 'bout? Joe Blow don't understand
ya - get clear or be dear - and ya are.

Do the do...then talk the talk. Remember this is an emotional
issue not just for the intelligensia. I'm dumb...like the rest of the US.
Lowest common denominator....shut it off...then deal with the folks.

Lou Dobbs did a show on what it would cost if Americans did farm work for 8-9 bucks an hour (this is above minimum wage in most places). All the farmers would have to do is raise the cost of a head of lettuce by 10 cents to recoup the increase in wages.

Even if the 45% estimate has a 20 points margin of error, This is still a very significant fact. In fact, it is one of the reasons I agree with the strategy laid out by TheRestofUS as a first step in a
larger results-based strategy. I support passage of the socalled Comprehensive Immigration Reform Bill. The only good thing I've been able to find about it is that it belongs to both
parties and perhaps that will make it easier to amend and would provide a working draft, as apposed to starting over. The status quo should not be maintained. We have more of enough
of that built into the system already.

Again I say focus on the wages. That is something the State can do, but local law enforcement should not have as its function to hunt down illegals. Make it unprofitable and the employers will not hire them. Then they will not have the incentive to come or stay here. But the issue with Mexico making survival so hard in their own country needs to be addressed with trade issues. It is more important to us for millions of Mexicans to be able to prosper in Mexico, then for a few people here and there to get rich exploitig the situation. We cannot change the geography, we share a border with them and the conditions there affect us.

This the letter I wrote to my Senators regarding the immigration bill.

I am writing to urge a no vote on the upcoming immigration bill.

In my estimation this bill is more of the same. In my opinion it does not reflect a genuine attempt to deal with the real problem underlying illegal immigration. I believe the guest worker provision in this bill will create a kind of peasant class of worker and will serve to further depress wages for low skill American workers. In addition, I do not know why anyone believes there will be sufficient enforcement in this bill to insure that the current crop of illegal immigrants will hop, skip, and jump through the various maze of hoops and hurdles the bill expects them to clear to become documented workers. The people who are here illegally were already willing to skirt the law to come here for work. What makes you think they will suddenly fall in line and abide by this convoluted series of steps, unless of course there is some guaranteed mechanism for enforcement? We already fail to enforce the immigration laws that are currently on the books.

I understand that it is virtually financially and logistically impossible to round-up 12 million illegal workers and deport them. I know some provision must be made to convert these workers into documented labor. I can accept that. I do not however accept what in my mind is essentially a new legalized slave work force under the guise of a guest worker program. This bill is a sell-out of low wage American workers for the benefit of big business and corporate power. Beyond the impact on American workers, as I understand it, the bill offers little in the way of protection for the so-called guest worker. If this bill passes I predict the influx of undocumented workers will continue unabated and Congress will be faced with another several million illegal immigrants in the next 4-7 years.

The ability to come here illegally and still become gainfully employed is the magnet for illegal immigration. People will not come illegally if they know they cannot get a job without “proper” documentation. In my view any serious effort to stem the tide of illegal immigration would focus on three primary areas: 1) developing a tamper proof identification required for everyone; 2) strict rules and mandatory guidelines for employers to follow; and 3) rigorous enforcement. With the level of technological advance in the world today this is surely doable.

I also believe we need to change the policy concerning place of birth as a determining factor regarding American citizenship. I child should carry the same citizenship as his or her parents. If the parents are from two different countries then the child might have dual citizenship, but at least one parent would have to be an American citizen in order for the child to be an American citizen. Just as the laws surrounding marriage to an American citizen were modified to deal with people who entered into sham marriages to become American citizens, so too should the law concerning citizenship and place of birth be changed in my opinion. Such a change would resolve the ridiculous issue of a child being an American citizen simply because his mother gave birth on American soil, but the child’s mother is an illegal immigrate – that makes no sense to me.

In my view this bill undercuts America workers in favor of providing cheat labor for industries that can well afford to pay a decent wage and thereby find an ample supply of American workers. I don’t buy the constant refrain that American’s won’t do this work. This is all about importing cheap labor so that business entities can put a few more dollars in their own pockets and avoid paying a decent wage.

I urge you to vote no on Bush’s immigration bill and put forward genuine legislation to deal with the problem of illegal immigration.

Well stated Robin. I almost totally agree. I have to say I do balk however on the "national Id card". Maybe I could get over this but I don't trust Bush and the Republicans with more power than they already have.

I agreed with several of your recommendations but not so much in tone and emphasize. I indicated above why I thought it should be passed.

Good grief Silver! You just lumped me in with 70slib! I think I'll stay out of this topic. I am so unappreciated here

I'm so sorry KT. I just disagree with your stance on illegal immigration. I sincerely apologize for lumping you in with 70slib.

Did any of you try to get a passport this year? Many people have been trying since January and their applications still haven't been processed. Congress decided to waive the time requirements and give the State Department more time to process the passports after so man complaints to Congress. Do any of you think the INS (now Homeland Security) knows who is here; who has stayed beyond their visas, and where they are? Do any of you think the INS currently has the computer capability to process the estimated 12 million outstanding illegals or that these 12 million are just going voluntarily pay their fines, go home inorder to come back, even though they will have legal status on day 2 of enactment of the bill. and that is all before you get to the drain on Social Security, Medicare, etc.

But we all know why Bush and some of the Democrats are anxious to get this thorugh. None of them want a draft. So, we get some of those illegals to fill the military ranks.

Since 2003, every time I went through an airport in the US (about 8 times a month until recently) TSA has been telling me that my 10 year passport issued in 1999 wasn't valid anymore (so I should get one of the new ones.) and been singled out for extensive search on several occasions on that pretext. Immigration says the document is valid until expiration.

what exactly would it look like when the current laws are enforced?

I think they are too broken, but let's assume for the sake of argument that they ain't.

what will it look like? what will be the consequences/results?

what laws exactly and what would happen?

please, maybe I'll jump on board, but broad statements are not policy

you should be flattered. I should be and am, amused.

I have to go Dante. I'll try to be more specific later. But try and use your imagination regarding enforcing the wage laws, and then the hiring laws. The Wage laws involve employers making and keeping records on what they are paying for tax purposes for instance. Making false claims is a whole nother crime in and of itself. As is paying off the books. A person hiring someone for cash for a one time job is one thing, but a regular employee and a large employer are quite different things.

I gotta go too, but one thing.

People on government disability aid, while trying to reenter the work force,,,the reporting rules worked against them every time. I can't imagine the reporting rules with new immigration dictates. small companies will stop using them and then we will have homeless immigrants with hungry mouths to feed. they will not all go home. many will not have homes to go back to or the money to do so.

trouble.


they are here. we need to have rational and realistic ways of dealing with THEM. wage laws are a whole nother issue. but what do we do with THEM?

they stay or leave...two options. no other is open.

how they get to stay and who among them stays is the real issue, the rational one.

State Dept. Faulted on Hill for Passport Delays
By Spencer S. HsuWashington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, June 19, 2007; Page A07



The State Department did not head off a massive backlog of passport applications before this summer's peak travel season, despite warnings as early as November that demand was running far higher than expected, congressional investigators said yesterday.

Department officials knew that requests were exceeding projections by 250,000 last November and by 600,000 in January -- the same month that a controversial travel rule took effect. The rule requires Americans to present passports when returning by air from Canada, Mexico, Bermuda and the Caribbean, Senate aides said. A Foreign Relations Committee hearing on the matter is set for today.



More than half of the Senate called on Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice yesterday to end the backlog and to ensure that it does not return after a temporary waiver, granted last week, expires on Sept. 30.

"It is unacceptable that American citizens were missing trips because the State Department did not fully anticipate the increase in passport applications and take appropriate action to increase processing resources," said a letter signed by 56 senators, led by Joseph I. Lieberman (I-Conn.) and Kent Conrad (D-N.D.).

Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) said the State Department should consider refunding a fee to applicants who paid an extra $60, on top of the regular $97 passport fee, for expedited processing.

"How much was collected for services not rendered?" Nelson spokesman Dan McLaughlin asked. "Who at the State Department is most responsible for inaction, given their own projections they saw at the end of last year? Is it a broader management failing?"

Angry constituents have been contacting lawmakers for weeks with reports of travel plans going awry because passport wait times have increased from as short as three weeks last year to as long as three months now.

State Department officials said that about 500,000 applications have been pending for more than 12 weeks and that they underestimated requests by as many as 1 million. The department is on pace to issue 17 million passports in 2007, compared with 12 million last year.

The breakdown has crystallized opposition in Congress to plans to expand the new homeland security requirements next January to people who enter by land or sea.

On Friday, the House overwhelmingly approved legislation similar to language passed by the Senate Appropriations Committee as part of the Department of Homeland Security's pending $37 billion 2008 budget. The legislation would mandate a 17-month delay, until June 2009, of the land and sea requirement, which is part of the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative.

That program was started after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks to require travelers to present a single, standardized document that can be automatically checked by U.S. border authorities against government databases to screen for security threats. But critics warn that 300 million of 400 million annual U.S. border crossings occur by land or sea.

"Everyone but the Bush administration can plainly see that a train wreck is looming on the horizon," Sen. Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.) said in a statement.

Senate aides said the State Department is asking to shift $112 million in its consular staffing budget to add 400 workers this summer and another 400 workers in the fiscal year starting in October, in addition to 1,125 employees and contract workers added since 2006.

The department has already invited employees worldwide to help colleagues in exchange for daily expenses while traveling in the United States and has asked retirees to come back as contractors.

A State Department official, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the Senate criticism came after business hours, said, "A root cause here is that we received a lot of passport applications from a lot of Americans in a short period of time, and we all reacted and responded to that added need."

Senate aides cite delays at the State and Treasury departments and at Citibank, a Treasury contractor. Citibank took over sole operation of "lockbox" offices set up to deposit passport fees and forward applications in November, but apparently fell two to three weeks behind the increase, causing further delays, aides said.

The problem has grown because some companies applied on behalf of their workers in large batches, many Americans who do not need passports are applying for them out of caution, and now more people are filing in anticipation of the long delays. Because passport processing relies on user fees, not money provided by Congress, budgets are based on projections that limit money and flexibility in case of unanticipated surges, aides said.

And we are talking about processing 12 million people in 24 hours under the legislation. These people are smoking something.

Setting the Record Straight: Illegal Immigrants Will Receive Welfare Under Senate Bill by Robert E. Rector WebMemo #1509