Sorry about the Rebel approach to mission...
but I understand serving for a B.S. reason.

I did it. Stupid? Perhaps. Y'all decide.

Should duty be defined as service to a vague
cause? Should a vague cause be worthy of
service - to death?

It's a question intelligent grunts consider.
Consider it with me. Would you die for this?

And if so, what is this? Tell me...I need to now.

Soldiers have died for their country's causes throughout mankind's history IH. Most of those causes were not noble when they chose to attack for gain. The men and women of Carthage went down to defeat but fought to the last defending their homes and loved ones. Defense is noble on its face when under attack, but it has not usually been given to the individual soldier enough truth to decide what cause was noble when rulers lie to justify invading others. They gave their oath to obey unto death. That the rulers lied to them about the justifications for their sacrifices lies at the ruler's feet not theirs. They honored their oath with courage exhibited by relatively few. That is personal honor.

I don't believe I would die for this clusterf*ck bro, because I know too much. But I would die defending this country. I remember a line from the movie "Gladiator". In the final death scene the New Empress stands up from the fallen hero's body in the arena and says to all;

"Is Rome worth one good man's life? We once believed it. Make us believe it again. He was a soldier of Rome. Honor him"

"Is Rome worth one good man's life? We once believed it.
Make us believe it again. He was a soldier of Rome. Honor him"

Ho-Haa MF. I'd saddle-up with you. If only the USA knew.
Perhaps honor would return.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour

Honour (British English), or honor (American English), is the evaluation of a person's trustworthiness and social status based on that individual's espousals and actions. Honour is deemed exactly what determines a person's character: whether or not the person reflects honesty, respect, integrity, or fairness. Accordingly, individuals are assigned worth and stature
based on the harmony of their actions, code of honour, and that of the society at large. Honour can be analysed as a relativistic concept, i.e., conflicts between individuals and even cultures arising as a consequence of material circumstance and ambition, rather than fundamental differences in principle. Alternatively, it can be viewed as nativist - that honour is as real to the human condition as love, and likewise derives from the formative
personal bonds that establish one's personal dignity and character.

"Mine honour is my life, both grow in one. Take honour from me, and my life is done. Then, dear my liege, mine honour let me try; In that I live, and for that I will die." — William Shakespeare, Richard II (1.1.182-185)

Damnation of The South, my friend, honor before life. Family, honor, service.
Or in the Army slogan: Duty, Honor, Country. Hoo-Ha, let's die for it, and we will be men. The simplist definition - my only requested ephitah.

Just as Cheney and Bush chose to evade manditory service the current military should utilize their own legal departments to oppose a decision to die for this President I and II.
As I have read the Washington Post articles this week I have seen abuse of power, secrecy misused to control, Legal advisor's writing and advising in the broadest of terms knowing that they would define those terms as they went along. A Republican Congress(yes remember that) who were played for fools and Democratic members who were powerless and challenged daily. Their was no Party but the GOP in Power and in all branches.

If I were a soldier and objected I would send my objection to a public forum so that the people would be informed and then turn myself in for military confinement. Never be silenced even in service to your country.

So the soldiers were posting their real feelings and what was really going on and they were silenced by the White House.

I am now watching Frontline on PBS called end game.

The President general shopped and ran all over Washington looking for someone to tell him what he wanted to hear.
The public voice discounted.

Now I believe the mess of the last two elections and the power carried by Cheney leaves us with no course but to believe when they leave office they will leave their mess and no information.

I remember once when our programmer at work left for a new job. The company hired a new programmer but the designs and codes for the system created by the original programmer were not left with the company. As the programmers design it was his property.
That is what Cheney and the Justice system and Karl Rove have effectively done.

Right now I believe Congress needs to focus on removing those powers and maintaining the Security Record keeping system of the National Archives and Congressional Library.

Unless we open the information and require it be recorded for history it will be all the president and vice presidents auto biographical information which will be no more reliable then anything written by Kitty Kelly.

So what I am saying stop them know and don't give them anymore time to claim loss or privacy of history our US History.
If they were upfront and honest well... Even John Kennedy went before the American people with proof of danger. He only protected the US for 6 days.
Cheney and Bush are protecting themselves and when the VA system and medical benifits are denied to soldiers they will use attorneys to fight their cases.
So here I am back to original thread and want to say get those legal actions going now don't wait for another 100,000 soldiers injured, amputated, brain damages and where are we on dead now, I know it is over 3,000.

I would go in a heartbeat.

Young men and women enlist for a lot of reasons. A fair number now in Iraq probably identified "the avenging of 911" as one reason. Others were attracted by recruiting incentives such as financial aid for an education. Many want to prove to themselves and to others that they have the "right stuff" to belong----to do their part as Americans.

My mission as an educator is to persuade 18-25 year olds that there are many better ways to make contribution than to serve in a US uniform defending other countries from the people who live there.

I agree 100%.

Or projecting American force into a country that doesn't want us and for the prime purpose of capturing the oil beneath its soil.

Is there a soul so dumb who believes we would be fighting in Iraq if their chief commodity were strawberries?

I suppose there is. We didn't go to war with Iraq for their oil.

Your right, Marine... it has nothing to do about oil. It has all to do with greed.

In many ways it comes down to whether the Culture still accepts Human Sacrafices, though
it may require the development of Art to transform what's going on into a mythical narrative of Knight Hood and Male Valor for Gentlemenly Warriors. Not many of the actual persons
who get ground up in these processes actually participate in this drama (mind games). As a form of Art, preserving a representation of our Military Herritage is a very good thing. Having it presented as the only way or even the best way to conceptualize a happy, healthy and productive Life by meeting one's own needs and contributing to the whole, is not beneficial to the social system. Athetics and Millionaire Status is similarly over valued in my opinion.

Anyone who now wants to go to Iraq and fight is just cannon fodder for a failed policy. As Kerry had to say about Vietnam, Who wants to be the last man to die , etc. To give up your life so Bush can say he is not loosing the war for a few more days is such a waste.

You know something David? If you accept that we are going to surrender and run from the terrorist again you are absolutely right. Who does want to be a casualty for a cause which your country is not going to let you win on? Not me, that's for sure.

But since the democrats control both houses a congress the skunk is in their bag now. And we all can see just how fast they implemented their cut & run promises.

I just get a sneaky suspicion they know if they do what they said they would do to get elected it just won't be all that good for the country they represent.

Not let you "win" on? Win what? More lucrative contracts for Halliburton? Our men and women have "won" what they are geared to win battles, wars agianst enemies in the field. They were told to topple Saddam. They did. The Iraqis must "win" what remains to be "won". We cannot do it for them, just as none can live someone else's life for them. The Iraqis themselves have different ideas about what "winning" is depending on which faction we are talking about.

I smell a skunk alright, and I would say it is about covering your ass and wanting to blame the dems for a war and an occupation that was the biggest strategic mistake in American History.

Actually the War of 1812 was our greatest strategic blunder, we almost ceased to exist as a nation when we could've just waited a bit and stopped the impressment of our sailors later.

Quit bein' a nitpicker Tomhye!

How else am I supposed to get a fresh supply of nits?

Right on Trou.

The G. O. P. mantra Now: " If you can't make any sense, try to keep the other side confused, too !!

The war was over a long time ago.

What's happening now is an occupation. A very unsuccesful one.

A.B.

"nits" or nuts? Take it as you will.

I don't have to face Iraq...I don't like it.
My nephew does - he gained his first honor
with a Congressional appointment to The Point - it's his duty - he is a Texan, a Southerner. Duty before self.

But, if ya want to argue The War - that's for old has-beens like me...and it has been a clusterf*ck...undeserving of the lifes of The Few, The Proud, and The Big Green Machine. But, that's just my opinion, and it's a platoon thing.

So carry on fine people - just hug these guys and gals when they come home...cause they are gonna be hurtin' - whether it shows or not.

You don't retard your humanity for country, without a price being paid. I'll pause to listen to their opinions...until they ask for my advice.

I would like to know how the country can let our soldiers win? No one in the Bush Administration seem to know. Marine if you know please tell Bush. He is clueless.