I was asked to sit in on a PTSD group for Iraq vets at my local VAMC last Monday. The psychiatrist in charge wanted me to talk about the long term impact of PTSD, and how many vets my age have dealt with this malady over time. The VA has been working with these vets by segregating them from the older vets attending these kind of groups because they felt it would be better for these people to remain with vets who can better relate to their own situations, ( I don’t necessarily agree, but who am I ).
A good portion of our discussion evolved around the reasons they were placed in harms way in the first place. As you can imagine, support for the Iraq war is waning dramatically amongst this new generation of war fighters. I took several questions about how the Vietnam vets related to having fought an unpopular war. For me it was Deja Vu all over again, but it wasn’t a good time to discuss the pros and cons of going into Vietnam, which I didn’t think could provide solutions for these vets’ problems. We did however talk about camaraderie and the idea of fighting solely for that. We talked about what we share in common from our combat experiences, and how we justify the loss of self and the loss of our comrades and friends. We discovered we have a great deal in common when talking about the feelings we share about our uncommon experiences. As well as the feelings of grief and guilt concerning those who didn’t make it home, and the ones who did but not in one piece.
One primary deference between the Iraq vets and Nam vets that I would like to point out is this; very few Nam vets went too war thinking this was a grand plan to save America, on the other hand the Iraq vets did believe the plan was an effort to save America from something horrific. Most Nam vets knew it was BS in the first place; it was quite different for the Iraq vets. Unfortunately the end game will have a similar outcome and many of today’s war fighters are having a problem dealing with that.
It is tough enough going through what these warriors have experienced, and now they’re situations are complicated by the “what’s and why’s” of justifying the Iraq war. The primary point I tried to leave with these valorous people was something I’ve discussed many times over the years with my peers, we fought for the lives and well being of our comrades, our friends and each other and that is justification enough. The Iraq vets went in for reasons that turned to crap, we went in knowing it was crap to begin with, we all came home dazed, confused and wondering how this could be.
I would like some input from my fellow vets, and others, concerning the point I put forward, that we fought for each other and our “comrades in arms”, and that alone justifies the harm done, regardless of the geo-political questions. I was well received by these folks and I was thanked profusely as well, yet I am shy of being confident of what impact to expect resulting from my comments. Simply put, I’ve been telling myself this for almost four decades now, many friends tend to agree. But isn’t there more that can be said to these great people who are suffering so from the quiet killer, PTSD? How do we better explain the “bush folly” and the “war with no end” that has impacted a new generation of war fighters? They are looking for justification, Nam vets know it will never come, what should be said?
Full Version: PTSD, Iraq Veterans and Vietnam Veterans?
QUOTE(vfguenley @ Jul 4 2007, 04:35 PM) 
I was asked to sit in on a PTSD group for Iraq vets at my local VAMC last Monday. The psychiatrist in charge wanted me to talk about the long term impact of PTSD, and how many vets my age have dealt with this malady over time. The VA has been working with these vets by segregating them from the older vets attending these kind of groups because they felt it would be better for these people to remain with vets who can better relate to their own situations, ( I don’t necessarily agree, but who am I ).
A good portion of our discussion evolved around the reasons they were placed in harms way in the first place. As you can imagine, support for the Iraq war is waning dramatically amongst this new generation of war fighters. I took several questions about how the Vietnam vets related to having fought an unpopular war. For me it was Deja Vu all over again, but it wasn’t a good time to discuss the pros and cons of going into Vietnam, which I didn’t think could provide solutions for these vets’ problems. We did however talk about camaraderie and the idea of fighting solely for that. We talked about what we share in common from our combat experiences, and how we justify the loss of self and the loss of our comrades and friends. We discovered we have a great deal in common when talking about the feelings we share about our uncommon experiences. As well as the feelings of grief and guilt concerning those who didn’t make it home, and the ones who did but not in one piece.
One primary deference between the Iraq vets and Nam vets that I would like to point out is this; very few Nam vets went too war thinking this was a grand plan to save America, on the other hand the Iraq vets did believe the plan was an effort to save America from something horrific. Most Nam vets knew it was BS in the first place; it was quite different for the Iraq vets. Unfortunately the end game will have a similar outcome and many of today’s war fighters are having a problem dealing with that.
It is tough enough going through what these warriors have experienced, and now they’re situations are complicated by the “what’s and why’s” of justifying the Iraq war. The primary point I tried to leave with these valorous people was something I’ve discussed many times over the years with my peers, we fought for the lives and well being of our comrades, our friends and each other and that is justification enough. The Iraq vets went in for reasons that turned to crap, we went in knowing it was crap to begin with, we all came home dazed, confused and wondering how this could be.
I would like some input from my fellow vets, and others, concerning the point I put forward, that we fought for each other and our “comrades in arms”, and that alone justifies the harm done, regardless of the geo-political questions. I was well received by these folks and I was thanked profusely as well, yet I am shy of being confident of what impact to expect resulting from my comments. Simply put, I’ve been telling myself this for almost four decades now, many friends tend to agree. But isn’t there more that can be said to these great people who are suffering so from the quiet killer, PTSD? How do we better explain the “bush folly” and the “war with no end” that has impacted a new generation of war fighters? They are looking for justification, Nam vets know it will never come, what should be said?
A good portion of our discussion evolved around the reasons they were placed in harms way in the first place. As you can imagine, support for the Iraq war is waning dramatically amongst this new generation of war fighters. I took several questions about how the Vietnam vets related to having fought an unpopular war. For me it was Deja Vu all over again, but it wasn’t a good time to discuss the pros and cons of going into Vietnam, which I didn’t think could provide solutions for these vets’ problems. We did however talk about camaraderie and the idea of fighting solely for that. We talked about what we share in common from our combat experiences, and how we justify the loss of self and the loss of our comrades and friends. We discovered we have a great deal in common when talking about the feelings we share about our uncommon experiences. As well as the feelings of grief and guilt concerning those who didn’t make it home, and the ones who did but not in one piece.
One primary deference between the Iraq vets and Nam vets that I would like to point out is this; very few Nam vets went too war thinking this was a grand plan to save America, on the other hand the Iraq vets did believe the plan was an effort to save America from something horrific. Most Nam vets knew it was BS in the first place; it was quite different for the Iraq vets. Unfortunately the end game will have a similar outcome and many of today’s war fighters are having a problem dealing with that.
It is tough enough going through what these warriors have experienced, and now they’re situations are complicated by the “what’s and why’s” of justifying the Iraq war. The primary point I tried to leave with these valorous people was something I’ve discussed many times over the years with my peers, we fought for the lives and well being of our comrades, our friends and each other and that is justification enough. The Iraq vets went in for reasons that turned to crap, we went in knowing it was crap to begin with, we all came home dazed, confused and wondering how this could be.
I would like some input from my fellow vets, and others, concerning the point I put forward, that we fought for each other and our “comrades in arms”, and that alone justifies the harm done, regardless of the geo-political questions. I was well received by these folks and I was thanked profusely as well, yet I am shy of being confident of what impact to expect resulting from my comments. Simply put, I’ve been telling myself this for almost four decades now, many friends tend to agree. But isn’t there more that can be said to these great people who are suffering so from the quiet killer, PTSD? How do we better explain the “bush folly” and the “war with no end” that has impacted a new generation of war fighters? They are looking for justification, Nam vets know it will never come, what should be said?
vfquenley, your questions break my heart. And you've obviously poured your heart out here. These young men and women are not stupid. Why don't you tell them what you've told us? Put yourself in their shoes. I know you remember. What might have helped you?
It sounds like you are doing the job well man.
Your direction of justification is exactly what kept
my psychosis in line. If they are in group that's good.
Tell them they should expect to find themselves looking up
from the sidewalk when a car backfires,
restraining the impulse to drive nose bones into skulls or rip
adams apples out at the hint of a confrontation. It's conditioning,
that will be controled.
I found political involvement, letter writing, government meeting
attendance and organizing helpful. I was apolitical before Vietnam.
I would suggest that perhaps they now have a mission to share
their experiences (as much as they can this early) so that what
they know as war finds an equal standing with the flags, parades
and rhetoric.
Remind them any actions they have second and third thoughts about, occurred in war and do not define who they must be.
That was the deepest counseling I did...helping those who did not
live in fear, but in self doubt.
I believe going as a draftee and knowing the war was B.S.
kept my PTSD way, way down. Remind them of their mind-set
when they went - and the honorable men they fought beside -
that was their cause.
I suggest you tell them the government that sent them needs their input...and there are alot of us that understand they didn't chose the fight or the tactics.
Tell them it will never go away - but will process...and if they
need something in Southeast Louisiana there's an old nobody,
certainly not a hero, who will do what he can for our younger
brothers-in-arms. They are in a very exclusive fraturnity now -
one without requirements of race, religion, region, income or education.
Finally, when they shake and/or cry, hug them for me
and tell them: Welcome Home.
I thank them - AND YOU - for your (continuing) service.
Your direction of justification is exactly what kept
my psychosis in line. If they are in group that's good.
Tell them they should expect to find themselves looking up
from the sidewalk when a car backfires,
restraining the impulse to drive nose bones into skulls or rip
adams apples out at the hint of a confrontation. It's conditioning,
that will be controled.
I found political involvement, letter writing, government meeting
attendance and organizing helpful. I was apolitical before Vietnam.
I would suggest that perhaps they now have a mission to share
their experiences (as much as they can this early) so that what
they know as war finds an equal standing with the flags, parades
and rhetoric.
Remind them any actions they have second and third thoughts about, occurred in war and do not define who they must be.
That was the deepest counseling I did...helping those who did not
live in fear, but in self doubt.
I believe going as a draftee and knowing the war was B.S.
kept my PTSD way, way down. Remind them of their mind-set
when they went - and the honorable men they fought beside -
that was their cause.
I suggest you tell them the government that sent them needs their input...and there are alot of us that understand they didn't chose the fight or the tactics.
Tell them it will never go away - but will process...and if they
need something in Southeast Louisiana there's an old nobody,
certainly not a hero, who will do what he can for our younger
brothers-in-arms. They are in a very exclusive fraturnity now -
one without requirements of race, religion, region, income or education.
Finally, when they shake and/or cry, hug them for me
and tell them: Welcome Home.
I thank them - AND YOU - for your (continuing) service.
Thank you for the great feedback Indianhead and Pegatha. I have an opportunity to make a small difference in the lives a few veterans who are hurting and I don't want to add to their problems. I can relate to their situations and I hope I can make a small contribution towards a better life. What I see missing here is the fact that this forum has several out spoken ex-military people who are all of a sudden mum on this thread. They are here almost every day spewing their so-called knowledge of military experience with all their grandiose ideals of what goes through the mind of a war fighter. Aside from Indianhead, not one of these ex-military people has offered a single suggestion that I can carry back to the next group. I was probably wrong, but somehow I thought I could get some positive feedback from those who are usually quite vocal on veterans issues in this forum.
I will let their absence speak for it’s self, their true colors have come through.
I will let their absence speak for it’s self, their true colors have come through.
I wouldn't judge the absence so harshly, thinking of what to say isn't easy. You're sure right about keeping people you love alive being the justification, when it comes to the war I'm not sure what to say. We shouldn't have gone in, being a realist the only good I see possible from it is giving the Kurds a safe place to live free, but that depends on how we exit. Knowing and accepting that they'll have ups and downs is vital, but I assume that's already being stressed. So much is replacing what they had to be with what they love and missed, over time it makes big changes. If you can get hold of Bob and Bonner I'm sure they'll have some great wisdom regarding this.
As is common practice in our country, when the parades are over, vets with problems are often looked at as burdens on government. When Iraq is over the same thing will occur but worse since the public is opposed to the occupation. I wonder if the same Republicans who say they support the troops today will do to the VA budget when the choice becomes between tax cuts for rich people and treatment for vets. We will see.
Every newborn human baby starts off with various levels of PTSD. Some high and some low.
Most enter environments that extinguishes whatever pattern of conditioned fear (avoidance)
responses generated by the birth experience. Many are born into environments that accentuate
these patterned fear responses. I believe that PTSD, like every other problem of human development, reduces to the question of what is the nature of human nature? To get any closer
to this answer, we must stop chasing after explanations of what makes human development go astray (because there are an infinite number of ways development can go astray) and focus on
identifying the ways that human development can be facilitated to an optimum level of Socialization and Self-actualization. What concepts and operations must persons employ to
achieve this state and what support systems are necessary? My observations confirm my interpretation of the research in the field. Those individual persons who accept and appreciate
the fact that they are fallible human beings, as are everyone else, and have had sufficient support to develope the necessary concepts and skills (including those required to develope and maintain social support) to cope with their own situation, are the ones who help their commrades
survive and get on a growth tract. No human being is going to get from birth to death without
some amount of trauma. The key, at a personal level is learning how to manage stress. The
key at a social system level is to build healthier physical and social environments and avoid
sending persons into such sick environments as War and excessive poverty. Staying closer to the focus of this thread, the first thing we as citizens must do is to absolutely forbid our goverment from using the waging of War as an instrument foreign policy. If we believe in Constitutional Democracy, we must demand a Constitutional Amending making this explicit,
and then enforce it.
Most enter environments that extinguishes whatever pattern of conditioned fear (avoidance)
responses generated by the birth experience. Many are born into environments that accentuate
these patterned fear responses. I believe that PTSD, like every other problem of human development, reduces to the question of what is the nature of human nature? To get any closer
to this answer, we must stop chasing after explanations of what makes human development go astray (because there are an infinite number of ways development can go astray) and focus on
identifying the ways that human development can be facilitated to an optimum level of Socialization and Self-actualization. What concepts and operations must persons employ to
achieve this state and what support systems are necessary? My observations confirm my interpretation of the research in the field. Those individual persons who accept and appreciate
the fact that they are fallible human beings, as are everyone else, and have had sufficient support to develope the necessary concepts and skills (including those required to develope and maintain social support) to cope with their own situation, are the ones who help their commrades
survive and get on a growth tract. No human being is going to get from birth to death without
some amount of trauma. The key, at a personal level is learning how to manage stress. The
key at a social system level is to build healthier physical and social environments and avoid
sending persons into such sick environments as War and excessive poverty. Staying closer to the focus of this thread, the first thing we as citizens must do is to absolutely forbid our goverment from using the waging of War as an instrument foreign policy. If we believe in Constitutional Democracy, we must demand a Constitutional Amending making this explicit,
and then enforce it.
VF, Tricare recently sent out a DVD on PTSD that is meant to be directed at the returning veteran. I don't know the extent to which they plan to distribute it, but I'd be glad to burn you a copy if you want to send me your address. It might be helpful to you in your volunteer work.
QUOTE(david sobien @ Jul 8 2007, 09:46 AM)
As is common practice in our country, when the parades are over, vets with problems are often looked at as burdens on government. When Iraq is over the same thing will occur but worse since the public is opposed to the occupation. I wonder if the same Republicans who say they support the troops today will do to the VA budget when the choice becomes between tax cuts for rich people and treatment for vets. We will see.
David, I don't believe you really wonder about this. You already know as we all do. When it comes to the choice between tax cuts for the rich and benefits for those who need it the most, the deck was stacked in November, 2000.
By any measure of common sense, because of those in power now, the Republican party will be toast for a long time. Independent candidates might upset this equation, hopefully not.
In 1925, veterans of WW1 marched on Wahington seeking the bonus which was promised to them, to come at a later date.
The Bonus Army or Bonus March or Bonus Expeditionary Force was an assemblage of about 31,000 World War I veterans, their families, and other affiliated groups who demonstrated in Washington, D.C. during the spring and summer of 1932 seeking immediate payment of a "bonus" granted by the Adjusted Service Certificate Law of 1924 for payment in 1945. They were led by Walter W. Waters, a former Army sergeant, and encouraged by an appearance from retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler, one of the most popular military figures of the time.
Google has many references to this.
I believe that the many veteran's organizations in existence today can and should be a lot more vocal and should use their political clout to get some changes made.
You do bring up some good points, David.
A.B.
A.B. As a member of the DAV myself, I am aware of what you say. My writing is just a comment on the hypocrisy of the Republican Party when it comes to the actual treatment of soldiers and vets. They wave the flag and pat you on the back but when it comes to spending money forget about it. At least the Democrats do not forget about the disabled vets.
QUOTE(vfguenley @ Jul 7 2007, 10:46 PM)
single suggestion that I can carry back to the next group
One of the symptoms that're an outward manifestation of PTSD is substance abuse and/or self pity in various forms. Methinks folks figure constant inebriation and/or self pity can help them get through their problems. Consequently the support gained through any of the 12 step programs where maintainin' anonymity is paramount like AA, Nar-Anon, Narcotics Anonymous, Al-Anon, Emotions Anonymous and a number of others can and often do help not only with any substance abuse problems and depression, but also help gain insight into dealin' with PTSD itself by helpin' and encouragin' each individual to develop and build their own program to get themselves straightened out. QUOTE
What I see missing here is the fact that this forum has several out spoken ex-military people who are all of a sudden mum on this thread
Whilst I applaud what you say you're doin', this was IMHO a cheap shot and totally uncalled for, eh? Methinks if you'd been payin' attention in other previos threads here on CGCS regardin' this and similar conditions you'da seen contributions from many of them same folks you're now takin' to task for not postin' here. Are you demandin' they rehash what they've said before every time someone starts a new thread on mental health issues associated with military service?Others I know, includin' one that posts here, choose not to talk 'bout it publicly. For some PTSD is their own private hell that they feel they have to deal with privately. By tryin' to bait folks who may fall into this category into public discourse 'bout it IMHO you show little respect for their privacy or well being.
As innocuous as it may seem your tauntin' could be the trigger for an onset of depression, and serious consequences for them. Not a good move!
QUOTE
They are here almost every day spewing their so-called knowledge of military experience with all their grandiose ideals of what goes through the mind of a war fighter
That methinks comes right up to, if not crosses the line regardin' civility on this forum. Just the same it might provide some insight into what this thread is really about. Consequently I'd be hopin' it's left in place as a reminder that this site has rules that're easily crossed and some here've reasons for bendin'/breakin' them, just as this part of my response does, eh?
I want to reinforce flydangler"s mention of mutual self-help groups. The , "12 Steps program which is found in a dozen different kinds of organizations dealing with various forms of addictive behavior.
Research based evaluations of such programs have consistently found them effective in helping a certain sub-set of this population (less than 50%) but still quite significant. There are many other kinds of mutual self-help groups, some of which have been more effective than the 12 steps programs, and some less effective. This approach to helping really mushroomed in the 1970's
and early 80's. Such community-based interventions are more cost-effective than purely
medical interventions. However, they are not free. Either the goverment or charitable organizations must put up the funds to organize and supervise such programs. Federal funds for such initiatives started drying up after Reagan's election and the whole culture took a turn towards
Social Darwinism. Community Development got a little bump from the Clinton Administration
but not sufficient to reverse the trend. Since BushII got in office everything supporting Individual
Human Development has gone down hill. Research has continued to refine and improve these methods but there has been no support for research desimination programs that could get this information to professional and peer helpers in the field. The same is true in Education, which when
ineffective, simply builds on the problems that school children bring to school. The technology is
there to completly reform Education so that it could produce healthy, happy fully functioning
adults, but neither the public will, financial resources nor organizational competence to carry
it out is there.
Research based evaluations of such programs have consistently found them effective in helping a certain sub-set of this population (less than 50%) but still quite significant. There are many other kinds of mutual self-help groups, some of which have been more effective than the 12 steps programs, and some less effective. This approach to helping really mushroomed in the 1970's
and early 80's. Such community-based interventions are more cost-effective than purely
medical interventions. However, they are not free. Either the goverment or charitable organizations must put up the funds to organize and supervise such programs. Federal funds for such initiatives started drying up after Reagan's election and the whole culture took a turn towards
Social Darwinism. Community Development got a little bump from the Clinton Administration
but not sufficient to reverse the trend. Since BushII got in office everything supporting Individual
Human Development has gone down hill. Research has continued to refine and improve these methods but there has been no support for research desimination programs that could get this information to professional and peer helpers in the field. The same is true in Education, which when
ineffective, simply builds on the problems that school children bring to school. The technology is
there to completly reform Education so that it could produce healthy, happy fully functioning
adults, but neither the public will, financial resources nor organizational competence to carry
it out is there.
QUOTE(vfguenley @ Jul 7 2007, 09:46 PM)
Thank you for the great feedback Indianhead and Pegatha. I have an opportunity to make a small difference in the lives a few veterans who are hurting and I don't want to add to their problems. I can relate to their situations and I hope I can make a small contribution towards a better life. What I see missing here is the fact that this forum has several out spoken ex-military people who are all of a sudden mum on this thread. They are here almost every day spewing their so-called knowledge of military experience with all their grandiose ideals of what goes through the mind of a war fighter. Aside from Indianhead, not one of these ex-military people has offered a single suggestion that I can carry back to the next group. I was probably wrong, but somehow I thought I could get some positive feedback from those who are usually quite vocal on veterans issues in this forum.
I will let their absence speak for it’s self, their true colors have come through.
I will let their absence speak for it’s self, their true colors have come through.
There ain't no doubt about it,PTSD can be debilitating. But to say there ain't no one out there to help you with it is a misnomer Vaughn.
Personally, I think a lot of guys try to stuff there feelings because, you know, admitting there's a problem isn't macho. Then they get down the road a ways and figure out they can't deal with this on their own.
I guess I was lucky not going to Nam, but I learned a few things. I saw guys who where screwed up supreme who tried to deal with their devils on their own and I saw them fail to beat them. That's why when I came back from Grenada I took the first offer a help which was made available.
My Top breifed us what to watch for and I wasn't stupid enough to try to say I could beat it on my own. I got my head shrunk and continued with follow up counciling anytime I had problems. Today I still got PTSD but it don't run my life.
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