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Common Ground Common Sense > Issues that Affect Our Lives > 9/11: Theories, etc.
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70sliberalism
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology...aw/1227842.html

QUOTE
Debunking The 9/11 Myths - Mar. 2005 Cover Story
PM examines the evidence and consults the experts to refute the most persistent conspiracy theories of September 11.
Published in the March 2005 issue.
QUOTE
Editor's Notes - The 9/11 Lies Are Out There
By Jim Meigs
Photographs by Alyson Aliano (James Meigs) and Lori Grinker/Contact Press Images (flag raising)
Published in the March 2005 issue.


http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology...aw/1230517.html


QUOTE
THE PLANES
The widely accepted account that hijackers commandeered and crashed the four 9/11 planes is supported by reams of evidence, from cockpit recordings to forensics to the fact that crews and passengers never returned home. Nonetheless, conspiracy theorists seize on a handful of "facts" to argue a very different scenario: The jets that struck New York and Washington, D.C., weren't commercial planes, they say, but something else, perhaps refueling tankers or guided missiles. And the lack of military intervention? Theorists claim it proves the U.S. government instigated the assault or allowed it to occur in order to advance oil interests or a war agenda.


QUOTE
Where's The Pod?
CLAIM: Photographs and video footage shot just before United Airlines Flight 175 hit the South Tower of the World Trade Center (WTC) show an object underneath the fuselage at the base of the right wing. The film "911 In Plane Site" and the Web site LetsRoll911.org claim that no such object is found on a stock Boeing 767. They speculate that this "military pod" is a missile, a bomb or a piece of equipment on an air-refueling tanker. LetsRoll911.org points to this as evidence that the attacks were an "inside job" sanctioned by "President George Bush, who planned and engineered 9/11."

FACT: One of the clearest, most widely seen pictures of the doomed jet's undercarriage was taken by photographer Rob Howard and published in New York magazine and elsewhere (opening page). PM sent a digital scan of the original photo to Ronald Greeley, director of the Space Photography Laboratory at Arizona State University. Greeley is an expert at analyzing images to determine the shape and features of geological formations based on shadow and light effects. After studying the high-resolution image and comparing it to photos of a Boeing 767-200ER's undercarriage, Greeley dismissed the notion that the Howard photo reveals a "pod." In fact, the photo reveals only the Boeing's right fairing, a pronounced bulge that contains the landing gear. He concludes that sunlight glinting off the fairing gave it an exaggerated look. "Such a glint causes a blossoming (enlargement) on film," he writes in an e-mail to PM, "which tends to be amplified in digital versions of images--the pixels are saturated and tend to 'spill over' to adjacent pixels." When asked about pods attached to civilian aircraft, Fred E. Culick, professor of aeronautics at the California Institute of Technology, gave a blunter response: "That's bull. They're really stretching."
70sliberalism
QUOTE
Mike Walter

USA Today's Mike Walter was driving near the Pentagon when he saw an American Airlines jet fly directly into the country's military nerve center. [544kB WAV download]Steve Anderson, Director of Communications, USA TODAY
A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye.

It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke.

Deb Anlauf
Anlauf was watching TV coverage of the Trade Center burning shortly before 9:30 a.m. when she decided to return to her 14th-floor room from another part of the hotel. Once in her room, she heard a "loud roar" and looked out the window to see what was going on.

"Suddenly I saw this plane right outside my window," Anlauf said during a telephone interview from her hotel room this morning. "You felt like you could touch it; it was that close. It was just incredible. "Then it shot straight across from where we are and flew right into the Pentagon. It was just this huge fireball that crashed into the wall (of the Pentagon). When it hit, the whole hotel shook."

David Battle
Battle, an office worker at the Pentagon, was standing outside the building and just about to enter when the aircraft struck. "It was coming down head first," he said. "And when the impact hit, the cars and everything were just shaking."

Omar Campo
Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head.

"It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane," Mr Campo said. "I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here."

Gary Bauer, former Presidential candidate
“I was going past the Pentagon, really inching a yard or so every couple of minutes. I had just passed the closest place the Pentagon is to the exit on 395 . . . when all of a sudden I heard the roar of a jet engine.

“I looked at the woman sitting in the car next to me. She had this startled look on her face. We were all thinking the same thing. We looked out the front of our windows to try to see the plane, and it wasn’t until a few seconds later that we realized the jet was coming up behind us on that major highway. And it veered to the right into the Pentagon. The blast literally rocked all of our cars. It was an incredible moment.

Mickey Bell
Bell, who had been less than 100 feet from the initial impact of the plane, was nearly struck by one of the plane´s wings as it sped by him. In shock, he got into his truck, which had been parked in the trailer compound, and sped away. He wandered around Arlington in his truck and tried to make wireless phone calls. He ended up back at Singleton´s headquarters in Gaithersburg two hours later, according to President Singleton, not remembering much.

The full impact of the closeness of the crash wasn´t realized until coworkers noticed damage to Bell´s work vehicle. He had plastic and rivets from an airplane imbedded in its sheet metal, but Bell had no idea what had happened.

Mark Bright, Defense Protective Service officer
Mark Bright, actually saw the plane hit the building. He had been manning the guard booth at the Mall Entrance to the building.

"I saw the plane at the Navy Annex area," he said. "I knew it was going to strike the building because it was very, very low -- at the height of the street lights. It knocked a couple down." The plane would have been seconds from impact -- the annex is only a few hundred yards from the Pentagon.

He said he heard the plane "power-up" just before it struck the Pentagon. "As soon as it struck the building I just called in an attack, because I knew it couldn't be accidental," Bright said. He jumped into his police cruiser and headed to the area.

James R. Cissell
''Out of my peripheral vision,'' Cissell said, ''I saw this plane coming in and it was low - and getting lower.

''If you couldn't touch it from standing on the highway, you could by standing on your car.''

In the next seconds dozens of things flashed through his mind.

''I thought, 'This isn't really happening. That is a big plane.' Then I saw the faces of some of the passengers on board,'' Cissell said.

He remembers the helipad the plane flew over before smacking into the Pentagon was close enough to him that ''I could have thrown a baseball at it and hit it.''

Dan Creed
He and two colleagues from Oracle software were stopped in a car near the Naval Annex, next to the Pentagon, when they saw the plane dive down and level off.

"It was no more than 30 feet off the ground, and it was screaming. It was just screaming. It was nothing more than a guided missile at that point," Creed said.

"I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now. It's just the most frightening thing in the world, going full speed, going full throttle, its wheels up," Creed recalls.

Don Fortunato
“Traffic was at a standstill, so I parked on the shoulder, not far from the scene and ran to the site. Next to me was a cab from D.C., its windshield smashed out by pieces of lampposts. There were pieces of the plane all over the highway, pieces of wing, I think.”

Afework Hagos
Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. "There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in."

Tom Hovis
Being a former transport type (60's era) I cannot understand how that plane hit where it did giving the direction the aircraft was taking at the time.

As most know, the Pentagon lies at the bottom of two hills from the west with the east side being next to the river at 14th street bridge. One hill is at the Navy Annex and the other is Arlington Cemetery. The plane came up I-395 also known as Shirley Hwy. (most likely used as a reference point.) The plane had been seen making a lazy pattern in the no fly zone over the White House and US Cap. Why the plane did not hit incoming traffic coming down the river from the north to Reagan Nat'l. is beyond me. Strangely, no one at the Reagan Tower noticed the aircraft. Andrews AFB radar should have also picked up the aircraft I would think. Nevertheless, the aircarft went southwest near Springfield and then veered left over Arlington and then put the nose down coming over Ft Myer picking off trees and light poles near the helicopter pad next to building. It was as if he leveled out at the last minute and put it square into the building. The wings came off as if it went through an arch way leaving a hole in the side of the building it seems a little larger than the wide body of the aircraft. The entry point was so clean that the roof (shown in news photo) fell in on the wreckage.

Terrance Kean
Terrance Kean, 35, who lives in a 14-story building nearby, heard the loud jet engines and glanced out his window.

"I saw this very, very large passenger jet," said the architect, who had been packing for a move. "It just plowed right into the side of the Pentagon. The nose penetrated into the portico. And then it sort of disappeared, and there was fire and smoke everywhere. . . . It was very sort of surreal."

Charles H. Krohn
One of the aircraft's engines somehow ricocheted out of the building and arched into the Pentagon's mall parking area between the main building and the new loading dock facility, said Charles H. Krohn, the Army's deputy chief of public affairs. Those fleeing the building heard a loud secondary explosion about 10 min. after the initial impact.

Maj. Lincoln Leibner
Maj. Leibner drove in and made it as far as the south parking lot, where he got out on foot. "I heard the plane first," he said. "I thought it was a flyover Arlington cemetery."

From his vantage point, Maj. Leibner looked up and saw the plane come in. "I was about 100 yards away," he said. "You could see through the windows of the aircraft. I saw it hit."

The plane came in hard and level and was flown full throttle into the building, dead center mass, Maj. Leibner said. "The plane completely entered the building," he said. "I got a little repercussion, from the sound, the blast. I've heard artillery, and that was louder than the loudest has to offer.

Elaine McCusker
Traffic is normally slow right around the Pentagon as the road winds and we line up to cross the 14th Street bridge heading into the District of Columbia. I don’t know what made me look up, but I did and I saw a very low-flying American Airlines plane that seemed to be accelerating. My first thought was just ‘No, no, no, no,’ because it was obvious the plane was not heading to nearby Reagan National Airport. It was going to crash.

William Middleton Sr.
William Middleton Sr., was running his street sweeper through the cemetery when he heard a harsh whistling sound overhead. Middleton looked up and spotted a commercial jet whose pilot seemed to be fighting with his own craft.

Middleton said the plane was no higher than the tops of telephone poles as it lurched toward the Pentagon. The jet accelerated in the final few hundred yards before it tore into the building.

Mare Ann Owens
Looking up didn't tell me what type of plane it was because it was so close I could only see the bottom. Realising the Pentagon was its target, I didn't think the careering, full-throttled craft would get that far. Its downward angle was too sharp, its elevation of maybe 50 feet, too low. Street lights toppled as the plane barely cleared the Interstate 395 overpass.

The thought that I was about to die was immediate and certain. This plane was going to hit me along with all the other commuters trapped on Washington Boulevard.

Gripping the steering wheel of my vibrating car, I involuntarily ducked as the wobbling plane thundered over my head. Once it passed, I raised slightly and grimaced as the left wing dipped and scraped the helicopter area just before the nose crashed into the southwest wall of the Pentagon.

Christine Peterson
I was at a complete stop on the road in front of the helipad at the Pentagon; what I had thought would be a shortcut was as slow as the other routes I had taken that morning. I looked idly out my window to the left -- and saw a plane flying so low I said, “holy cow, that plane is going to hit my car” (not my actual words). The car shook as the plane flew over. It was so close that I could read the numbers under the wing.

And then the plane crashed. My mind could not comprehend what had happened. Where did the plane go? For some reason I expected it to bounce off the Pentagon wall in pieces. But there was no plane visible, only huge billows of smoke and torrents of fire.

Frank Probst
American Airlines Flight 77 approached from the west, coming in low over the nearby five-story Navy Annex on a hill overlooking the Pentagon.

"He has lights off, wheels up, nose down," Probst recalled. The plane seemed to be accelerating directly toward him. He froze.

"I knew I was dead," he said later. "The only thing I thought was, 'Damn, my wife has to go to another funeral, and I'm not going to see my two boys again.'."

He dove to his right. He recalls the engine passing on one side of him, about six feet away.

The plane's right wing went through a generator trailer "like butter," Probst said. The starboard engine hit a low cement wall and blew apart.

Clyde Ragland
Ragland described billowing black smoke and "what looked like white confetti raining down everywhere." He said it soon became apparent "that the 'confetti' was little bits of airplane, falling down after being flung high into the bright, blue sky."

Tim Timmerman
A pilot who saw the impact, Tim Timmerman, said it had been an American Airways 757. "It added power on its way in," he said. "The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball."

Thomas D. Trapasso
Thomas D. Trapasso, a political appointee in the Clinton Administration who is now looking for work, was making telephone calls from his deck in Arlington Village, about 1 mi. south of the Pentagon and just west of the Interstate 395 (I-395) highway. He was startled by the large American Airlines aircraft flying about 300 ft. overhead. "The engines were just screaming, and the wheels were up," Trapasso said. "It disappeared over the trees, and I heard a boom. I knew something awful had happened--that an airplane had crashed somewhere in Washington, D.C.

Alan Wallace
About 9:40, Alan Wallace had finished fixing the foam metering valve on the back of his fire truck parked in the Pentagon fire station and walked to the front of the station. He looked up and saw a jetliner coming straight at him. It was about 25 feet off the ground, no landing wheels visible, a few hundred yards away and closing fast.

"Runnnnn!" he yelled to a pal. There was no time to look back, barely time to scramble. He made it about 30 feet, heard a terrible roar, felt the heat, and dove underneath a van, skinning his stomach as he slid along the blacktop, sailing under it as though he were riding a luge. The van protected him against burning metal that was flying around. A few seconds later he was sliding back out to check on his friend and then race back to the firetruck. He jumped in, threw it into gear, but the accelerator was dead. The entire back of the truck was destroyed, the cab on fire. He grabbed the radio headset and called the main station at Fort Myer to report the unimaginable.

The sun was still low in the sky, obscured by the Pentagon and the enormous billowing clouds of acrid smoke, making it hauntingly dark. The ground was on fire. Trees were on fire. Hot slices of aluminum were everywhere.
graham4anything
Of course the fact that Bush knew about it is indisuptable.

The little minutia would only be known to the family involved.

That Bush is worse than Hitler is now 100percent verifiable.
For when Mr. Hitler died, it died with him.
Bush has tentacles that are 100arms long. It is and has been eternal.

Most of the tidbits have been proven in the great video entitled "Tattoo theorists, look boss da plane da plane"as being
disinformation, and most of the people involved have deep ties to the defense department.

We all know Bush was in Florida as an alibi so nothing could be done to stop it. Whether W himself did or did not know is irrelevant, as W himself is nothing in the big plan but a Charlie McCarthy.

Jimmy Carter tried to stop it. No one else since has even made lip service to stop it.
There was a great malaise in Jimmy Carter's time, and he was honest enough to deal straight with the nation.
They would rather don't worry be happy.
Now it is moUrning in America.

To paraphrase Paul & Art "Where have you gone Jimmy Carter, a nation turns their weary eyes for you"
graham4anything
from our own board(among 1000s of posts)
http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...php/t74719.html
The prima facie case that 9/11 was an inside job remains unrefuted.



“If raising disturbing questions about the official account would be seen as both unpatriotic and sacrilegious, it is not surprising that, as both Rena Golden and Dan Rather admit, the mainline press in America has not raised these questions. It is also not surprising that right-wing and even middle-of-the-road commentators on political affairs have not raised serious questions about the official account. It is not even surprising that some of them – including Jean Bethke Elshtain, a professor of social and political ethics –have declared that the accusation of official complicity is beyond the pale of reasonable debate, so that any arguments on its behalf can simply be ignored. Elshtain, calling the suggestion that American officials, including the President, were complicit in the attacks “preposterous”, adds: “This sort of inflammatory madness exists outside the boundary of political debate” and therefore does not even “deserve a hearing”. From this perspective, it is not necessary to examine the evidence put forward by critics of the official account, even though some of these critics are fellow intellectuals teaching in neighboring universities – such as two well-respected Canadian academics, economist Michel Chossudovsky and social philosopher John McMurtry [see below for relevant links]. Although Elshtain points out that “if we get our description of events wrong, our analyses and our ethics will be wrong too”, she evidently thinks it unnecessary to consider the possibility that the official description about the events of 9/11 might be wrong. Although this attitude is unfortunate, especially when it is expressed within the intellectual community, it is not surprising. What is surprising, however, is that America’s leftist critics of US policy, who are seldom worried about being called unpatriotic or sacrilegious, have for the most part not explored, at least in public discourse, the possibility of official complicity.”

“If a significant portion of the evidence summarized here holds up, the conclusion that the attacks of 9/11 succeeded because of official complicity would become virtually inescapable.”

From the Introduction to The New Pearl Harbor by David Ray Griffin
------------

“In his introduction to The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11, David Ray Griffin makes a distinction critical in the field of 9/11 between cumulative and deductive arguments. The exhibits in this chapter show cumulatively that 9/11 was an inside job. Only one exhibit needs to be proven true (beyond a reasonable doubt) for the “Inside Job” theory to be strengthened, or even proved (the “Smoking Gun”). If more than one holds up, the case for an Inside Job becomes even more substantive. If a clear majority hold up, the argument for Inside Job becomes nearly invincible.

What if, on the other hand, one exhibit (or one part of one exhibit) fails to hold up? Does this mean all of the others are undermined or rendered null and void? Not at all. It simply means that particular exhibit can be set aside for further scrutiny, or turn out to be entirely wrong. This holds true for more than one exhibit. All exhibits need to be examined on their own merits. Each bona fide exhibit on its own supports the cumulative evidence of an inside job on 9/11. To maintain the credibility of the official 9/11 story, all the evidence that follows must be proven wrong. …

Supporters of the official story … must employ deductive reasoning to maintain the official story of 9/11. In deductive reasoning, each step in the argument depends upon the truth of the previous step…. In deductive reasoning, the whole chain can fail if one link fails.”

[Noel Twyman writes in his book Bloody Treason] “that he was forced to accept the reality that ‘no evidence … in any complex crime is of absolute certainty. Doubts can be raised about any piece of evidence ‘if one is willing to search long enough’. In fact, this is the method of courtroom lawyers; their job is to create doubts in the minds of jurors or of a judge. They will go so far as to ‘manufacture doubt out of thin air’.

Toronto lawyer Peter Rosenthal says ‘The two main criteria for admissibility of evidence are that it be reliable and shed light on the ultimate issue. The decision on the ultimate issue must be based on the totality of the reliable and relevant evidence.’ In other words, the cumulative evidence.”

From Towers of Deception: The Media Cover-Up of 9/11, by Barrie Zwicker

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529813972926262623
The Great Conspiracy (video)

-- -- --

“… what distinguishes an outrageous theory from a non-outrageous one? …. The mark of a good theory is that it can explain, in a coherent way, all or at least most of the relevant facts and is not contradicted by any of them. A bad theory is one that is contradicted by some of the relevant facts. An outrageous theory would be one that is contradicted by virtually all the relevant facts.”

“Many people who know or at least suspect the truth about 9/11 probably believe that revealing it would be so disturbing to the American psyche, the American form of government, and global stability that it is better to pretend to believe the official version. I would suggest, however, that any merit this argument may have had earlier has been overcome by more recent events and realizations. Far more devastating to the American psyche, the American form of government, and the world as a whole will be the continued role of those who brought us 9/11, because the values reflected in that horrendous event have been reflected in the Bush Administration’s lies to justify the attack on Iraq, its disregard for environmental science and the Bill of Rights, its criminal negligence both before and after Katrina, and now its apparent plan not only to weaponize space but also to authorize the use of nuclear weapons in a pre-emptive strike.”

“When suspects in a criminal case keep changing their story, we assume that they must be trying to conceal the truth. But an even more serious problem with the Commission’s new story [the third change in its description of the NORAD/FAA response] is that many of its elements are contradicted by credible evidence or are otherwise implausible.”

“In a criminal trial, once the prosecution has presented its initial case, the defense asks the judge for a dismissal on the grounds that a prima facie case for guilt has not been presented. However, if the judge declares such a case has been made, then the defense must rebut the various elements in the prosecution’s case. The defense cannot simply offer another theory while ignoring the prosecution’s case. If the defense fails to offer a convincing rebuttal, the prima facie case is presumed to be conclusive.”

“The 9/11 Commission, under the direction of Bush Administration insider Phillip Zelikow, had the opportunity to rebut the prima facie case against the Bush administration. But as the above illustrations of both omissions and distortions show, it completely failed to do so. As a result, the prima facie case that the Bush Administration orchestrated the attacks of 9/11 remains unrefuted. The publication of the 9/11 Commission Report should, accordingly, be recognized as a decisive event: the moment at which the prima facie case against the Bush administration became a conclusive case.”

“Burns Weston, a professor of law, has said that the ‘disparity between official 9/11 ‘spin’ and independently researched 9/11 fact [is] so glaring as to suggest the possibility of a constitutional crisis unlike anything our country had ever known’.”

“… It is only when we realize that the attacks of 9/11 were carried out and covered up for the sake of America’s global domination project that we can, as I have suggested elsewhere, fully grasp the extent to which this project is propelled by fanaticism based on a deeply perverted value system.”

“We love being the sole remaining superpower in the world and we want so much to remain that way that we are willing to put at risk the basic health of our economy and well-being of our people to do so.” -- Senator Robert Byrd

From Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action, by David Ray Griffin
---

“9/11 is a controversial and unfashionable topic, like the JFK assassination, and for the same reason. To ask questions about 9/11 risks raising questions about the legitimacy of our government. Above all, it raises questions about the radical restrictions of basic freedoms that have been introduced since September 2001.

The more status someone has in this society, the harder it is for them to listen to suggestions that there is something illegitimate about the power structure in which they have that status.

Thus the paradox that ordinary people are more likely to disbelieve the official theories, or of JFK, than are people with higher education and greater access to information.”


“… There is a pattern to the misrepresentations… In fact, the 9/11 Report is carefully written and carefully foot-noted. There is a consistent pattern of the misrepresentations, and the pattern that I am looking at is the consistent down-playing or trivialization of the role that Dick Cheney played that day.”

“It is pretty clear that all the most important orders that day … were issued … from a single source … the source was the PEOC in the bunker underneath the White House where Dick Cheney was presiding.”

There is a negative template, or pattern of recurring suppression…: “the details thus suppressed can be seen as indications or clues as to the important information that is being suppressed.”

Peter Dale Scott, from his forthcoming book: The Road to 9/11: Wealth, Empire and the Future of America

Video of an hour-long presentation at http://www.911blogger.com/node/8771

---

http://www.archive.org/details/mcmurtry Video
Why The Facts of 9/11 Are Suppressed (John McMurtry)
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id390.html Text

http://scienceforpeace.sa.utoronto.ca/Essa...Murtry-9-11.pdf
The Shadow Subject: Understanding 9/11 and the 9/11 Wars (McMurtry)

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MCM305A.html
Understanding the US War State (McMurtry)

---

“The law says a person is presumed innocent until found guilty. But it should be realized that this concept is applicable only in a courtroom. As individuals, we have the right to form our own judgment at any point we become convinced….”

--Noel Twyman, Bloody Treason


and then there is this one---
http://www.signs-of-the-times.org/signs/ed...sFlyingFish.php
graham4anything
Remember-
only 1 percent of the official government story (the lie) has to be proven to have been a lie.

With it comes the complete and utter degregation of that lie official story. Because an official story never has to be proven.

Why? Because it is true, as it is the official story.

People can theorize and 99 out 100 be wrong. However, that one where the lies are shown to have been lies, brings an entire official story down.

Which of course is why the Bushfamilyinc and whoever leads them never did an investigation(much like there never was a count, recount and another recount on 12-12-2000, they just kept saying their was).

When you lie, eventually you forget which lie came where, and the smoke and mirrors and house of cards all comes tumbling, tumbling down.


Paola Nutini-Tumbling down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL4mEeUrZm4
Style Council-The walls came tumbling down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElhC1jFz7-c

Rolling Stones-Tumblin' Down
(no video found)

Ziggy Marley-Tumbling Down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BId4lvTk5Nw
70sliberalism
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Jul 24 2007, 05:36 AM) *
Of course the fact that Bush knew about it is indisuptable.

The little minutia would only be known to the family involved.

That Bush is worse than Hitler is now 100percent verifiable.
For when Mr. Hitler died, it died with him.
Bush has tentacles that are 100arms long. It is and has been eternal.

Most of the tidbits have been proven in the great video entitled "Tattoo theorists, look boss da plane da plane"as being
disinformation, and most of the people involved have deep ties to the defense department.

We all know Bush was in Florida as an alibi so nothing could be done to stop it. Whether W himself did or did not know is irrelevant, as W himself is nothing in the big plan but a Charlie McCarthy.

Jimmy Carter tried to stop it. No one else since has even made lip service to stop it.
There was a great malaise in Jimmy Carter's time, and he was honest enough to deal straight with the nation.
They would rather don't worry be happy.
Now it is moUrning in America.

To paraphrase Paul & Art "Where have you gone Jimmy Carter, a nation turns their weary eyes for you"
g, popular mechanics


and it has been disputed and debunked.

One of my questions is why? why do people bother to live in a world of conspiracies? I am serious. I was interested in that stuff enough to look into as many as I could (I was very young and the Public library was a cool place to me)
Arneoker
Before, on another thread, Graham said that the PM article had been debunked. I asked him about the debunking, and he said that it would better be discussed in another thread. I agreed with him on that.

Now 70s has opened up a thread based on the PM article. It would seem that now would be a good time to present the debunking of the PM article, so that people could examine it and make up their own minds whether or not it makes sense.

Or does the PM article make sense?

Isn't this how we advance the discussion, by asking what makes sense?

But it seems like those promoting the 911 alternative theories put an awful lot of energy into making ad hominen attacks on those skeptical of their theories (as opposed to actually showing flaws in the arguments of those skeptics). The very notion of skepticism is taken as defense of George Bush, Dick Cheney, and the crimes that they are alleged to have committed.

They also whine about being marginalized and dissed. Well I don't support marginalization and dissing of people simply because they have a very unconventional view. But my reaction is pretty much: "So what?" Didn't these courageous crusaders for the truth expect that kind of reaction? Rather than complain about being "done wrong" why not simply keep pounding on their persuasive points, if they are so persuasive?

Oh but Arne, you are being unfair again. We make our points about why the official story is wrong and point out the evidence of Bushie complicity all of the time. Well not so far, on this thread. Yes, at times I do see discussion of the various points, of people getting down to the nitty gritty. But I also see a lot of ad hominen attacks on the skeptics, puffing up of the 911 alternative theory advocates, of the reluctance of people to accept the truth and agree with these advocates (the notion that there might be plausible reasons to disagree with the advocates is just assumed to be outrageously ridiculous), etc.

So let's see the debunking of the PM article. Let us discuss it, whether or not it makes sense, whether it does a good job in pointing out the flaws in the PM article. Let people look at it, and make their own judgment.
graham4anything
QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 24 2007, 08:56 AM) *
g, popular mechanics
and it has been disputed and debunked.

One of my questions is why? why do people bother to live in a world of conspiracies? I am serious. I was interested in that stuff enough to look into as many as I could (I was very young and the Public library was a cool place to me)



Popular Mechanics article was DEBUNKED.

All you gotta do is google it.

And it is already up on the posts. Look in the 3 long threads. Look for mag's posts. They are already there.

Was a gov't syncopant that did it. Same like the lies they spewed in that Palmolive thing (or whatever it was).

No, it only asked more questions than not.

That reminds me- Merv Griffin, the noted liberal,(and all around nice guy), is in the hospital with a recurrence of cancer. Recently he was the victim of a vicious vicious smear.
Get well Merv. (aside from his great charity work, Merv, along with his singing, acting, talk show, created Jeopardy and the Wheel of Fortune.) We love you Merv.
Get well. Your friends await your recovery.

All it takes is one little cog in the wheel to be wrong from the official story, and the whole axle falls off. The minutia is irrelevant. Because the big picture is the lies.

And I don't need any proof to know 19 bumbling people brought down 2 Israeli style hits bringing down 4 buildings while that magic passport from heaven fell into the one person who instantly was able to tell us all 19 names and get us into Iraq.
Yeah, have I got a bridge to sell you.
Arneoker
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Jul 24 2007, 12:19 PM) *
Popular Mechanics article was DEBUNKED.

All you gotta do is google it.

And it is already up on the posts. Look in the 3 long threads. Look for mag's posts. They are already there.


Graham, you have made all sorts of statements about 911 over and over again. I would not be surprised if one could find several statements that you have made, in slightly different wording, but with the same meaning, that you have repeated literally dozens of times.

And that is fine. You obviously feel that it is important to repeat those statements, to keep them alive in cyberspace. It is not enough for you to say, "Well I have made these points before so I am not going to repeat them."

But why cannot you show the debunking article? I know that it exists, it has been referenced many times by all kinds of people. Why not just post it?

QUOTE
Was a gov't syncopant that did it.
Ad hominen attack. Now if the argument was simply claims of personal knowledge, then yes, the connections that the person has is a critical matter. But if the person basically argues from claims of fact that are sourced, and makes a case that they claim to be based on logical reasoning, then you check the claims of fact, introduce any facts that were neglected that you think important, and shoot holes in their reasoning. If you debunk the argument that way, you don't need to question the credibility of the author. If you cannot do that, then raising the issue of credibility simply suggests that your own case is pathetically weak.

QUOTE
Same like the lies they spewed in that Palmolive thing (or whatever it was).


I have no idea of what you are talking about.

QUOTE
No, it only asked more questions than not.
Interesting criticism, when you and others have often said, "All we are doing is asking questions about the government story."

QUOTE
That reminds me- Merv Griffin, the noted liberal,(and all around nice guy), is in the hospital with a recurrence of cancer. Recently he was the victim of a vicious vicious smear.
Get well Merv. (aside from his great charity work, Merv, along with his singing, acting, talk show, created Jeopardy and the Wheel of Fortune.) We love you Merv.
Get well. Your friends await your recovery.


Another "done me (or us) wrong" argument that proves nothing.

QUOTE
All it takes is one little cog in the wheel to be wrong from the official story, and the whole axle falls off. The minutia is irrelevant. Because the big picture is the lies.
So a cog is not a piece of minutia? If not how are they different? Because if they are not different, then is minutia important if a detail in the official story is wrong, but irrelevant if it raises a problem with the alternative theories?

QUOTE
And I don't need any proof to know 19 bumbling people brought down 2 Israeli style hits bringing down 4 buildings while that magic passport from heaven fell into the one person who instantly was able to tell us all 19 names and get us into Iraq.
Yeah, have I got a bridge to sell you.


But in the real world it was more than that. One passport, for example, didn't tell us about the guys who flew from Portland, Maine to Boston before taking one of the planes to New York. And how how is having to do a loop the loop do over, because the plane was way too high to hit the Pentagon on the first pass, a precision style hit? Your mantra is catchy, but is not well-grounded in reality.
Arneoker
I didn't google it, but I did do an MSN search to find the (an?) "debunking article". I am supplying a link to it, and one to a piece rebutting one the points of the PM debunkers.

You're welcome.

I haven't done my own close read of these two links, but if we want to discuss all of this, it would seem like we could start right here. And people can always add their own links, pro and con.

So has the PM article been effectively debunked? Or can we even really answer that question?

http://www.infowars.com/articles/911/debun...chanics_91.html

http://www.911myths.com/html/67_intercepts.html
graham4anything
We really would need magmak's view to get to the bottom of this

In the end, it doesn't matter if there were planes, not planes, shot down, not shot down

The key is-WHAT DID BUSHADMINISTRATION KNOW AND WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT

That is what is important

Only supoena's and truth in an investiagtion will bring that out.
Because everything else at this point is just a distraction, just minutia
Arneoker
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Jul 24 2007, 03:13 PM) *
We really would need magmak's view to get to the bottom of this


Why? Is he the only one here capable of independent thinking?

QUOTE
In the end, it doesn't matter if there were planes, not planes, shot down, not shot down
Of course it matters, if we are trying to explain what happened.

QUOTE
The key is-WHAT DID BUSHADMINISTRATION KNOW AND WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT

That is what is important


That would be at least part of it. And that would be related to matters such as how the planes precisely figured into all of this.

QUOTE
Only supoena's and truth in an investiagtion will bring that out.
Because everything else at this point is just a distraction, just minutia


Would the whole 911 Truth Movement all be just a distraction, and minutia, as well? If not, then why would they be excluded from that categorization, and not their opponents? If we need an investigation to get the truth (and I agree with that) then that would be based on the assumption that there are important things that we just don't know. Which means that we probably should be careful to claim too much in the way what we know now, one way or the other. But in the meantime we can offer opinions on what we seem to know now, or we can't. Which would it be? And to repeat one of my favorite sayings, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
70sliberalism
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Jul 24 2007, 01:13 PM) *
We really would need magmak's view to get to the bottom of this

In the end, it doesn't matter if there were planes, not planes, shot down, not shot down

The key is-WHAT DID BUSHADMINISTRATION KNOW AND WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT

That is what is important

Only supoena's and truth in an investiagtion will bring that out.
Because everything else at this point is just a distraction, just minutia

uhm g,?

Bush reading My Pet Goat, with that precious look on his face. He knew diddly squat.

the fact is you deny Popular Mechanics' science?

oh well.
70sliberalism
http://commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/...button.pngFunny thing...I saw a guy who wrote the PM article or was in charge of the research. He was no Neocon or guv agent.

names and stuff would be nice. I googled the debunking...not one independent and credible site...yet.

Popular Mechanics is a credible source...unless you think the world is still flat

---

here:

Debunking 9/11 Myths
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Debunking 9/11 Myths (Hearst, August 15, 2006, ISBN 1-58816-635-X) is a book based on the March 2005 Popular Mechanics article 9/11: Debunking The Myths[1] responding to various 9/11 conspiracy theories. Debunking 9/11 Myths was written by David Dunbar and Brad Reagan, and published in August 2006. Popular Mechanics interviewed over 300 experts and organizations for the book, listed in Appendix A of the book, at pages 109-112.[2]



August 15, 2006
The Glenn & Helen Show: Debunking 9/11 Myths

158816635X.01._AA_SCMZZZZZZZ_V67081897_We talk to David Dunbar and Brad Reagan, editors of Popular Mechanics' new book, Debunking 9/11 Myths: Why Conspiracy Theories Can't Stand Up to the Facts. But are we just part of the vast conspiracy? Listen and find out . . .

You can listen to the file directly (no iPod needed!) by clicking right here, or you can get it via iTunes here. There's a lo-fi version right here, and you can see an archive of previous podcasts at GlennandHelenShow.com.

Music -- "You're on the Hit List" -- is by The Opposable Thumbs.

Browser-friendly flash player, here.
posted at 04:27 PM by Glenn Reynolds
http://instapundit.com/archives/031961.php

audio link to an interview with the editors @ instapundit
graham4anything
QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 25 2007, 01:14 AM) *
uhm g,?

Bush reading My Pet Goat, with that precious look on his face. He knew diddly squat.

the fact is you deny Popular Mechanics' science?

oh well.



Bush was sent to Florida
AS AN ALIBI

Whether W kkknew or not is irrelevant, as Cheney had the power

Bush was in the schoolroom AFTER he already knew about the first plane (as he was told way before, and the time on the school clock easily is proof it was the 2nd plane he was told about

No one knows waht Andrew Card said- it might have been "Great job, just sit tight another 15 minutes and all"

As the whole world knew where W was, (including the made-up people doing it), he easily could have been taken out in that unprotected school room, so he put all those kids in danger by staying their, if he really was scared

Just like in Katrina-Bush went west instead of east

It was his alibi.

It matters little if there were planes going into the buildings, if Bush owned the hijackers (Bush=the entire Bush family, Bush himself is just a manchurian anyhow).
There could have been a beacon on the plane
We have pilots on this board who said what happened was no easy thing, yet it was an Israeli military style hit, precision
A 1/1000th wind shift, the plane landed in the river. Banking and making turns, not very easy.

People died, just like the odd story in CT. last night-first opinion every single person I know said is "the husband created the situation"
70sliberalism
g, are you serious or bored? I've seen this type of spam at other sites. tell me you are joking.
Arneoker
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Jul 25 2007, 04:50 AM) *
No one knows waht Andrew Card said- it might have been "Great job, just sit tight another 15 minutes and all"

For that matter he could have said, "I'm sorry Mr. President, but I just learned that TV Land has moved 'Gunsmoke' past your bedtime."

Isn't this kind of speculation...pointless?
Arneoker
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Jul 25 2007, 04:50 AM) *
There could have been a beacon on the plane
We have pilots on this board who said what happened was no easy thing, yet it was an Israeli military style hit, precision
A 1/1000th wind shift, the plane landed in the river. Banking and making turns, not very easy.

People died, just like the odd story in CT. last night-first opinion every single person I know said is "the husband created the situation"

There are pilots who have said all sorts of things, including those who have said that amateurs with some training could have indeed piloted those planes and done what they did.

Reagan National Airport is right beside the Potomac River. Now granted the planes that land there are piloted by professionals, but all of them are human and make mistakes. Since I moved here over 30 years ago the only time one of them went into the river was when there was a terrible winter storm and icing which debilitated the plane.

I wouldn't claim that these guys had an easy job. Indeed if it were easy then the Pentagon plane would not have had to do a loop the loop turn to come back at the Pentagon, being way too high on the first pass. Now is that a "precision, military style hit"? It sounds like the pilot had a general, not a precise, idea of where the Pentagon was.
Arneoker
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Jul 25 2007, 04:50 AM) *
Bush was sent to Florida
AS AN ALIBI

You think that only a few people would have been smart enough to figure out that if Bush or Cheney were masterminding this that they did not actually have to be "at the command post" once the plan actually went down?
kindergarten teacher
I have been giving much thought to the idea of truth vs. myth. The myth is such a powerful idea.
Arneoker
Well, Magmak, no one can deny that you haven't given people something to chew over!

This is part of how I think the debate should go. We have serious claims here about the credibility of the "official" theory, things that will stand or fall on their own merits, and on other relevant stuff brought in.
Magmak1
“It is the function of the experts, and the mainstream media,
to normalize the unthinkable for the general public.”

-- from Edward S. Herman's landmark essay, "The Banality of Evil"


“Flying into Philadelphia recently, I spotted the Kean congressional report on Sept. 11 from the 9/11 Commission on sale at the bookstalls. "How many do you sell?" I asked. "One or two," was the reply. "It'll disappear soon." Yet, this modest, blue-covered book is a revelation. Like the Butler report in the UK, which detailed all the incriminating evidence of Blair's massaging of intelligence before the invasion of Iraq, then pulled its punches and concluded nobody was responsible, so the Kean report makes excruciatingly clear what really happened, then fails to draw the conclusions that stare it in the face. It is a supreme act of normalizing the unthinkable. This is not surprising, as the conclusions are volcanic.

The most important evidence to the 9/11 Commission came from General Ralph Eberhart, commander of the North American Aerospace Defense Command (Norad). "Air Force jet fighters could have intercepted hijacked airliners roaring towards the World Trade Center and Pentagon," he said, "if only air traffic controllers had asked for help 13 minutes sooner. ... We would have been able to shoot down all three ... all four of them."

Why did this not happen?

The Kean report makes clear that "the defense of U.S. aerospace on 9/11 was not conducted in accord with preexisting training and protocols. ... If a hijack was confirmed, procedures called for the hijack coordinator on duty to contact the Pentagon's National Military Command Center (NMCC). ... The NMCC would then seek approval from the office of the Secretary of Defense to provide military assistance... "Uniquely, this did not happen. The commission was told by the deputy administrator of the Federal Aviation Authority that there was no reason the procedure was not operating that morning. "For my 30 years of experience ..." said Monte Belger, "the NMCC was on the net and hearing everything real-time. ... I can tell you I've lived through dozens of hijackings ... and they were always listening in with everybody else."

But on this occasion, they were not. The Kean report says the NMCC was never informed. Why? Again, uniquely, all lines of communication failed, the commission was told, to America's top military brass. Donald Rumsfeld, secretary of defense, could not be found; and when he finally spoke to Bush an hour and a half later, it was, says the Kean report, "a brief call in which the subject of shoot-down authority was not discussed." As a result, Norad's commanders were "left in the dark about what their mission was."

The report reveals that the only part of a previously fail-safe command system that worked was in the White House where Vice President Cheney was in effective control that day, and in close touch with the NMCC. Why did he do nothing about the first two hijacked planes? Why was the NMCC, the vital link, silent for the first time in its existence? Kean ostentatiously refuses to address this. Of course, it could be due to the most extraordinary combination of coincidences. Or it could not.

In July 2001, a top secret briefing paper prepared for Bush read: "We [the CIA and FBI] believe that OBL [Osama bin Laden] will launch a significant terrorist attack against U.S. and/or Israeli interests in the coming weeks. The attack will be spectacular and designed to inflict mass casualties against U.S. facilities or interests. Attack preparations have been made. Attack will occur with little or no warning."

On the afternoon of Sept. 11, Donald Rumsfeld, having failed to act against those who had just attacked the United States, told his aides to set in motion an attack on Iraq - when the evidence was nonexistent. Eighteen months later, the invasion of Iraq, unprovoked and based on lies now documented, took place. This epic crime is the greatest political scandal of our time, the latest chapter in the long 20th-century history of the West's conquests of other lands and their resources. If we allow it to be normalized, if we refuse to question and probe the hidden agendas and unaccountable secret power structures at the heart of "democratic" governments and if we allow the people of Fallujah to be crushed in our name, we surrender both democracy and humanity.”

Excerpted from The Unthinkable Becomes Normal
by John Pilger

http://www.watir.org/res/mil_indust_complex.htm

-----------


Courtesy of George Washington at http://www.911blogger.com/node/10171 :

“How could a government which was supposedly oblivious to the 9/11 plotters know by September 12 that a single coordinated spectacular was the only thing planned?”

See the 9/12/01 press conference with Ari Fleisher here: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/psychic.html

“…we believe that the perpetrators have executed their plan and, therefore, the risks are significantly reduced.”

---------

John McMurtry:

"The absolute falsity of the official story is undeniable. It's scientifically confirmable; we have evidence for it and we don't have good evidence against it...it's a scientific hypothesis...we can regard as valid."

http://www.911blogger.com/node/10131

----------


“Republican presidential candidate John McCain was literally overwhelmed by reporters from WeAreChange.org and Infowars.com seeking 9/11 truth during a campaign stop.

McCain, who wrote the forward to Popular Mechanics' Debunking 9/11 Myths, repeatedly told reporters, "I do not support a new investigation" and stated that he believes the "9/11 Commission did a good job."

But other reporters continued to hammer the complicit senator with further questions and demands for a new 9/11 investigation. Seemingly frustrated that he could not simply brush off 9/11 truthers, McCain retreated to his SUV where he entertained questions from the mainstream media only.”

http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/180707_mccain_911.html

video available at the link

So why can't these people stand up to some simple questions?

---------

Two tidbits to add to the debate about the official story:


http://www.911blogger.com/node/9847

President Bush at the Florida School: New Conflicting Testimonies

by Elizabeth Woodworth
July 6, 2007
www.911blogger.com

There is a completely overlooked report in the September 1, 2002 Tampa Tribune which strongly suggests an early coverup over how long President Bush remained in the Saratoga classroom after he received Andrew Card’s whispered message that the second tower had been hit.

Sitting at close range was Grade 2 school teacher Sandra Kay Daniels, whose virtually unknown account of events was published at the anniverary of 9/11, on Sept. 1, 2002, in the Tampa Tribune:

Don't ask what was in George W. Bush's letter to the teacher whose late father was the son of a former slave.

"Uh-uh-uh. No, no, no," Daniels says, her voice rippling with don't-go-there warnings about the personal note she received around Sept. 17, 2001. "That will remain sacred."

Daniels, you see, was standing near Bush last Sept. 11 when White House chief of staff Andrew Card whispered in the presidential ear of tragedies. Precisely what Card said is uncertain, but he reportedly told Bush - who already knew a commercial plane had struck the north tower of New York's World Trade Center - that the south tower also had been hit.

In that instant, Daniels says, she knew "this wasn't the same person who had sat down in that chair." Bush grimaced and, obviously lost in thought, forgot about the book in his lap.... Bush picked up the book and read with the students for eight or nine minutes.

...While Bush was contemplating Card's remarks, Daniels' thoughts were a blur. She knew something was amiss; nonetheless, she had to carry on with the lesson. "I couldn't gently kick him. ... I couldn't say, "OK, Mr. President. Pick up your book, sir. The whole world is watching.' " I know he is the president, but that was my room he was in."

As he was leaving Daniels' room, he told her only, "There are matters I have to attend to." He didn't explain anything to her class. Instead, he went into the school's media center, where he made a televised statement to a room crammed with reporters, guests, parents and students who had hoped to chat with him. (1)

Apart from the fact that Ms. Daniels reported having later received a personal communication from the President, this report is not remarkable, until it is compared with two other accounts of Ms. Daniels’ experience that day, both published in large mainstream newspapers within 12 days of her first account.

First, Ms. Daniels’ account in the Los Angeles Times reported that Bush left in fairly short order:

“I knew something was up when President Bush didn't pick up the book and participate in the lesson. Mentally, he left me. I still didn't know what had happened. He said, 'Mrs. Daniels, I have to leave now. I am going to leave Lt. Gov. Frank Brogan here to do the speech for me.' Looking at his face, you knew something was wrong. I said a little prayer for him. He shook my hand and left.” (2)

And the next day, September 12th, the New York Post carried a much different account, in which Daniels claimed that the president “bolted” from the classroom:

“Sandra Daniels recalled yesterday how she and her class learned of the terror attacks - when a federal agent rushed into the room to inform the president of the United States.

President Bush had been presiding over her reading class last 9/11, when a Secret Service agent interrupted the lesson and asked, "Where can we get to a television? "The president bolted right out of here and told me: ‘Take over,' " Daniels told The Post yesterday. "I knew something serious had happened, and then a short while later he came back and said, ‘What we thought was an airline accident turned out to be a terrorist hijack.'" (3)

There had been no general public knowledge of Bush staring into space for long minutes until “Fahrenheit 9/11” appeared in June 2004. In July 2004, Understanding the “War on Terrorism”: Engineering Public Opinion, appeared, along with a short appendix: “A Year Later -- Attempting to Rewrite History.” (4)

This appendix shows that the official story was revised on the first anniversary of 9/11 through various media accounts, under the direction of White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card (5), and that the Booker elementary school in Florida also participated in the revisions. The Tampa Tribune account, which is almost impossible to find on the Web, has not to date been compared with these revisionist accounts, and when seen together, the results are staggering. What happened to cause Ms. Daniels to change her story within 12 days?

In summary, the original question:

1. Why was Bush allowed to remain in the school for 30 minutes while the country was under attack?

has expanded into:

2. Why, in turn, was a media campaign undertaken by Andrew Card the following year to rewrite this strange occurrence?

and finally, a third as-yet-unexplored question arises from the second:

3. Why is the intriguing 2002 Tampa Tribune account of Ms. Daniels’ experience (which mirrors the 2004 Fahrenheit 9/11 documentary) virtually unavailable on the Internet? And why do the Daniels’ revisionist accounts, published in mainstream newspapers, appear to have been systematically concealed behind changing titles and broken links?

Even the Aldridge appendix is not currently quoted on the Web.

It is essential to keep the trail of such contradictions alive and free from possible hacking. These report links, now restored within this article, should be made openly available by the 9/11 truth community for consultation and analysis.

And the truth movement should be on the alert for possible interference with its knowledge base.

* * * * * * *

FOOTNOTES

1. Jennifer Barrs. “From A Whisper To A Tear”, The Tampa Tribune, September 1, 2002. http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2002/t...bune090102.html

2. 9/11: A Year After / WHO WE ARE NOW Sandra Kay Daniels 'Looking at his face, you knew something was wrong. I said a little prayer for him.' Los Angeles Times, Sept. 11, 2002, http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access...ids=171354041...

3. Malcolm Balfour, Tragic Lesson, The New York Post, September 12, 2002
http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2002/nypost091202.html

4. Bob Aldridge. “A Year Later – Attempting to Rewrite History.” In: Understanding the ‘War on Terrorism’: Engineering Public Opinion, p. 104. July 2004. http://www.plrc.org/docs/040116.pdf

5. Ibid. “In a 9 September 2002 interview on NBC’s “The News With Brian Williams,” Card said that after he told the President about the second plane, “not that many seconds later the president excused himself from the classroom and we gathered in the holding room and talked about the situation.

“Two days later, on the anniversary date itself, Card had an article published in the San Francisco Chronicle. He described Bush’s reactions after being told about the second plane: “He looked up – it was only a matter of seconds, but it seemed like minutes – and I thought that he was outstanding in his ability not to scare either the American people that were paying attention to the cameras or, more importantly, the students that were in the classrooms. And he just excused himself very politely to the teacher and to the students, and he left.” Ref: Andrew Card. “9.11 Voices. What if you had to tell the President?” San Francisco Chronicle, Sept. 11, 2002. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c...N911voice03.DTL

---------------------------------------------------

http://www.911blogger.com/node/9844

In a speech titled "Paul Nitze's Legacy: For a New World", delivered on April 15, 2004 before the Aspen Institute, Paul Wolfowitz revealed that he and Donald Rumsfeld had lunch with members of the 9/11 Commission before the report was complete:

"When Don Rumsfeld and I had lunch with members of the 9/11 commission recently, one member asked what could they do to ensure that their report would make a real difference, that it would be read five or 10 years from now, instead of just filed away on a dusty shelf. I realize now that I gave them a pretty tall order. What I told them, basically, was to write something similar to George Kennan's long telegram or Paul Nitze's NSC-68. I told them that, rarely to my knowledge, has anyone other than historians with a specific interest in the subject, gone back to read the report of the Pearl Harbor Commission. NSC-68, on the other hand, is still studied in colleges and universities, including colleges for strategists like the war colleges of our military services or our National Defense University."

See http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0PA..._116668579/pg_3

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSC_68

-------------

Breaking News: Loose Change Producer Korey Rowe Arrested


Iraq, Afghanistan veteran handed over to military officials by police under charges of "deserting the Army"

Loose Change producer and Iraq and Afghanistan veteran Korey Rowe has been arrested and handed over to military officials without bail for allegedly "deserting the Army".
70sliberalism
QUOTE(kindergarten teacher @ Jul 25 2007, 12:15 PM) *
I have been giving much thought to the idea of truth vs. myth. The myth is such a powerful idea.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." - John F. Kennedy
70sliberalism
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Jul 25 2007, 12:59 PM) *

please list the names of credible scientists/experts who actually debunk Popular Mechanics' scientists/experts.

One can site sources on the www/bet until the cows come home. Just because it is on the web doesn't make it true.

I can independently fact check (without taking a web/net site's version) all of PM's sources and the credibility of their experts/scientists.

please....no links to long articles and suspect sources.
70sliberalism
Magmak1 post #23: "Why was the NMCC, the vital link, silent for the first time in its existence? Kean ostentatiously refuses to address this."

where and when did Kean refuse to answer this? Did this actually happen? is this a myth?
kindergarten teacher
QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 25 2007, 04:15 PM) *
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." - John F. Kennedy


So now we know why we love the myth so, and how we continue to believe in it, protect and foster it.
70sliberalism
QUOTE(kindergarten teacher @ Jul 25 2007, 06:01 PM) *
So now we know why we love the myth so, and how we continue to believe in it, protect and foster it.

My problem is am not easily persuaded and I do not feel the desire to protect and foster fear, loathing and paranoia. My life is very full and real and it is eventful enough without adding myths to the mix.

I am a good sounding board for friends who get sideswiped by the persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.
graham4anything
QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 25 2007, 07:20 PM) *
please list the names of credible scientists/experts who actually debunk Popular Mechanics' scientists/experts.

One can site sources on the www/bet until the cows come home. Just because it is on the web doesn't make it true.

I can independently fact check (without taking a web/net site's version) all of PM's sources and the credibility of their experts/scientists.

please....no links to long articles and suspect sources.



Why don't you read the 3 long threads about this very thing...
In the end, if only 1 percent of the official story is false, then the official story is a lie (because the official story needs no action, it is suppose to be, well, true)
If 99 out 100 percent of the other ideas are false, that leaves the 1 percent that makes the official story false.

End of story.

Minutia means nothing anymore.

there is just no way the official story is true.
Because if it was Poppa Bear would not have had W bear sit on his lap without a transcript, not under oath.

WHAT DID BUSHFAMILY KNOW AND WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT?
70sliberalism
g, Bush is not running again. It's over. It was over on Jan 20, 2005. Bush sucks. Long live the Presidency.

911 was an al qaeda operation. Osama Bin Laden is a hero to * around the world.

and if you take away from bin Laden's deeds...you could be called patronizing and racist. Why do you imagine that arabic muslims are incapable of doing to us what they did to the soviets...waged terror?
graham4anything
QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 25 2007, 11:56 PM) *
g, Bush is not running again. It's over. It was over on Jan 20, 2005. Bush sucks. Long live the Presidency.

911 was an al qaeda operation. Osama Bin Laden is a hero to * around the world.

and if you take away from bin Laden's deeds...you could be called patronizing and racist. Why do you imagine that arabic muslims are incapable of doing to us what they did to the soviets...waged terror?



al-cia-dah

there is no bin laden
there never was

Yeah, a 6 foot 11 giant plotting to take over the world while on diaylsis machine going cave to cave

Our great grandchildren will forever laugh at us for that bull-spit story, and how America fell for such a stupid ridiculous story

Muslims don't hate us. They love you and me. We live with them millions of them in the East coast alone, not one who wants any more or less than anyone else-their own little piece of the pie.
Of course the bushfamily don't like that.

And you are wrong. W is nothing. The Bushfamily is larger than he is. Jeb will one day be tsar, after Hillaryrodhamclintonbush gets her turn.

The only terror is what looks back at Bush41 and Bush43 in their mirror. They are the terror.
70sliberalism
good night g.

I am unsure why you say the things you do. I can only assume you are bored to death. It's too bad. You could get more with rational discourse.

ltr

your pal
d.
graham4anything
QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 26 2007, 12:01 AM) *
good night g.

I am unsure why you say the things you do. I can only assume you are bored to death. It's too bad. You could get more with rational discourse.

ltr

your pal
d.



I must be crazy, loco, loony, nuts, daft, goofy and that must be Bellevue on the phone...
Magmak1
QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 25 2007, 09:33 PM) *
Magmak1 post #23: "Why was the NMCC, the vital link, silent for the first time in its existence? Kean ostentatiously refuses to address this."

where and when did Kean refuse to answer this? Did this actually happen? is this a myth?



Although I have seen examples in video of Kean and others refusing to answer specific questions put to them, I assume that this writer is using "Kean" in this context as an alternative name for the 9/11 Commission, whose hearings and final report most certainly did not address the issue of the NMCC/FAA/war games questions forthrightly, directly, or effectively and, indeed, had to change their tune twice.

The issues of 9/11 cannot be "debunked" by attempting to tear down a single notation, a single source, or a single "messenger".

There have been five books written by David Ray Griffin alone, and another by Barrie Zwicker, all of which make a clear refutation of the "official story".
  • The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9-11, Olive Branch Press, 2004, ISBN 1-566-56552-9
  • The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions, Olive Branch Press, 2004, ISBN 1-566-56584-7
  • Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action, Westminster John Knox Press, 2006, ISBN 0-664-23117-9
  • The American Empire and the Commonwealth of God: A Political, Economic, Religious Statement, with John B. Cobb, Richard A. Falk and Catherine Keller, Westminster John Knox Press, 2006, ISBN 0-664-23009-1
  • 9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out, Vol. 1, editor, with Peter Dale Scott, Olive Branch Press, 2006, ISBN 1-566-56659-2
  • Debunking 9/11 Debunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory, Arris Books, 2007, ISBN 1-566-56686-X
See also John McMurty: http://www.archive.org/details/mcmurtry

and

Barrie Zwicker:

http://www.greatconspiracy.ca/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529813972926262623 (70-minute video)

http://www.amazon.com/Towers-Deception-Med...1/dp/0865715734
Magmak1
QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 25 2007, 09:20 PM) *
please list the names of credible scientists/experts who actually debunk Popular Mechanics' scientists/experts.


http://patriotsquestion911.com/

This web site lists:
    100+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials,
    170+ Engineers and Architects
    50+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals, and
    140+ Professors
Who Question 9/11

-------

From http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2006/09/jones.html which has embedded links to the sources:

Numerous credible scientists and engineers have recently disproven some of the most commonly-held, but false, theories about the collapse of the World Trade Centers on September 11, 2001:

A prominent physicist with 33 years of service for the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, DC, said that the official theory for why the Twin Towers and world trade center building 7 collapsed "does not match the available facts" and supports the theory that the buildings were brought down by controlled demolition

A prominent physicist, former U.S. professor of physics from a top university, and a former principal investigator for the U.S. Department of Energy, Division of Advanced Energy Projects, stated that the world trade centers were brought down by controlled demolition

A U.S. physics professor who teaches at several universities believes that the World Trade Centers were brought down by controlled demolition

A professor emeritus of physics and former division chairman from a small community college said "My wife and I, transfixed in front of a TV as the horror of 9/11 unfolded, watched as the topmost, undamaged floors of the WTC South Tower started to gradually lean (rotate) in the direction of the damage due to impact. In an instant, the rotation stopped, and that which was rotating began to fall, as if only under the influence of gravity! The fulcrum was no longer there! I blurted out, "My god, they wired the building."

An expert on demolition said that the trade centers were brought down with explosives (and see TV interview here; both in Danish)

A Dutch demolition expert stated that WTC 7 was imploded

A safety engineer and accident analyst for the Finnish National Safety Technology Authority stated regarding WTC 7 that "The great speed of the collapse and the low value of the resistance factor strongly suggest controlled demolition."
A number of structural engineers have questioned the government's explanation for the collapse of the Twin Towers. As just two of many examples, two structural engineers at a prestigious Swiss university said that, on 9/11, World Trade Center 7 was brought down by controlled demolition (translation here)

A prominent engineer with 55 years experience, in charge of the design of hundreds of major building projects including high rise offices, former member of the California Seismic Safety Commission and former member of the National Institute of Sciences Building Safety Council believes that the World Trade Centers were brought down by controlled demolition (see also this)

An architect, member of the American Institute of Architects, who has been a practicing architect for 20 years and has been responsible for the production of construction documents for numerous steel-framed and fire-protected buildings for uses in many different areas, including education, civic, rapid transit and industrial use, has disputed the claim that fire and airplane damage brought down the World Trade Centers and believes there is strong evidence of controlled demolition (see also this video, part 2 here, and part 3 here (other architects who question 9/11 are listed here)

A former guidance systems engineer for Polaris and Trident missiles and professor emeritus, mathematics and computer science at a university concluded that the Twin Towers "were brought down by planted explosives."

A professor of mathematics said "The official explanation that I've heard doesn't make sense because it doesn't explain why I heard and felt an explosion before the South Tower fell and why the concrete was pulverized"

A Danish professor of chemistry said, in a mainstream Danish newspaper, "WTC7 collapsed exactly like a house of cards. If the fires or damage in one corner had played a decisive role, the building would have fallen in that direction. You don't have to be a woodcutter to grasp this" (translated)

See this scientific journal and this web page (skip to "Mathematics, Science and Engineering") for additional scientists who have disproven commonly-accepted misconceptions about 9/11.

Military leaders, legal scholars, senators and presidents, liberals, conservatives, Christians, Jews and Muslims and the 9/11 Commissioners themselves have also all recently debunked widespread 9/11 myths.
-----

From the same source:

Tuesday, May 29, 2007

Structural Engineers Question Collapse of the World Trade Center

One of the arguments that government apologists have used in trying to prop up the official story of why the World Trade Centers came down on 9/11 is that no structural engineers have questioned the government's version of events. However, that is now changing.

The following structural engineers have now publicly challenged the government's account of the destruction of the Trade Centers on 9/11:

Hugo Bachmann and Jörg Schneider, both emeritus professors in structural engineering at a prestigious Swiss university (translation here)

Charles Pegelow, structural engineer, of Houston, Texas (and see this)

Dennis Kollar, structural engineer, of West Bend, Wisconsin

Doyle Winterton, structural engineer (retired)

Haluk Akol, Structural Engineer and architect (ret.)

Joseph M. Phelps, MS, PE. Structural Dynamicist (ret.), Charter Member, Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers

William Rice, P.E., structural engineer, former professor of Vermont Technical College

When considered along with the other prominent scientists who question 9/11, it becomes impossible for any thinking person to accept at face value the government's version of the destruction of the World Trade Center.

------

From the same source:

Monday, July 16, 2007

When the History of 9/11 is Written

What will future history books say about 9/11? When all the facts are in, what will future historians write about 9/11?

Well, a good place to start might be to see what professional historians are saying now.

All of the following historians have concluded that 9/11 was an inside job, or at least questioned major portions of the the government's account about 9/11:

Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret), Military Historian and Deputy Director of Field Operations for the U.S. Marine Corps Historical Center, Washington, D.C. 1990 - 1994, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense during the Reagan Administration and a highly decorated Vietnam veteran (two Silver Stars, a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart)

Georg Kreis, PhD, Professor of History and Director of the Europe Institut of the University of Basel

Daniele Ganser, PhD, Lecturer in the History Department at the University of Basel. Former Senior Researcher at the Center for Security Studies at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. Former Researcher at the Military Academy (MILAK) of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology

Howard Zinn, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Boston University. Historian and political scientist. Author of A People's History of the United States

Major John M. Newman, PhD, U.S. Army (ret), Professor of History and International Relations, University of Maryland. Former Executive Assistant to the Director of the National Security Agency. Former military attaché in China. 21-year career in U.S. Army Intelligence

James G. Smart, PhD, Professor Emeritus of History, Keene State College. Former Assistant Professor of History, University of Chattanooga

Carolyn Baker, PhD, Adjunct Professor of History, New Mexico State University

Joseph Diaferia, Professor of History and political science

Prominent World War II historian Robert Stinnett (who stated, in a telephone interview with me, that he believes the government let 9/11 happen in order to justify its agenda)

Gore Vidal, writer and historian

Webster Tarpley, historian and writer

Many other historians, especially those with expertise on war and fascism, understand that false flag operations such as 9/11 have been used throughout history to justify military campaigns and the consolidation of domestic power.
graham4anything
hey 70slib-
Global warming is something 99.9 percent of all people of sound mind think is real.

Of course, Bushie found a few syncopants who put their name and have big backgrounds and are famous.

And, after Michael Moore's SICKO came out, it showed again Bushies had to go find a doctor to dispute it on CNN.
Guess what, CNN 100percent backed off and stated uncategorically that Michael Moore and Sicko had the correct facts based on when/what was in the movie at that time.

It gets very tiresome to keep arguing the same point over and over again. Especially as in reality, there is no need for me to try and change anyone's view here who wasn't already changed.

HOWEVER- in 2002, maybe 3 percent of the public thought the official story was wrong. NOW about 40 percent or more of the public thinks the official story is Wackie-nu-nu, bogus, unbelievable, an outright lie.

But then Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. got weary but he kept arguing the same point over and over and over again.
Because maybe each time another few people joined the Love train and got off the hate chain.
70sliberalism
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Jul 25 2007, 10:04 PM) *
I must be crazy, loco, loony, nuts, daft, goofy and that must be Bellevue on the phone...

roflmao.gif
70sliberalism
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Jul 26 2007, 01:34 AM) *
The issues of 9/11 cannot be "debunked" by attempting to tear down a single notation, a single source, or a single "messenger".

by issues, if you mean unanswered questions...that is odd. because there are always questions. clear perception and critical thinking are not always present.

killing the messenger is what your sources do.

911 was an al qaeda plot that succeeded just as they succeeded in other plots against the us.

911, was televised and everyone was panicing and then there is the fog of war.

the issues surrounding 911, will never be solved fully because that is how life works.

there is no conspiracy around the events of what actually happened on 911.

there is a whole alternate universe out there that thinks because they say so it is so. well, people think they have been abducted by aliens too. doesn't make it true.
amy
QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 26 2007, 09:47 AM) *
911, was televised and everyone was panicing and then there is the fog of war.

the issues surrounding 911, will never be solved fully because that is how life works.

there is no conspiracy around the events of what actually happened on 911.


Exactly. So some, like myself, accept the mainstream version of events, others question, have doubts and some have come to conclusions that are contrary to the "accepted version". I don't have a problem with that.
70sliberalism
QUOTE(amy @ Jul 26 2007, 07:56 AM) *
Exactly. So some, like myself, accept the mainstream version of events, others question, have doubts and some have come to conclusions that are contrary to the "accepted version". I don't have a problem with that.

I abhor ignorance and myth makers as they are enemies of truth. truth shall set one free.

there are myths and there are myths.

I love the myths that are designed to bring people together for the betterment of the whole or as enlightenment for the individual.

I despise myth that is meant to divide, alarm, strike fear.

----

/i do not have an accepted version of real events. the "issues" people raise are never ending. no biggie if they didn't try and shout it from every roof top while denouncing the other version.

reactionaries are boring.
amy
QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 26 2007, 10:20 AM) *
----

the "issues" people raise are never ending. no biggie if they didn't try and shout it from every roof top while denouncing the other version.

reactionaries are boring.


So, it's the "attitude" of intolerance for opposing versions that annoys you,......annoys me, too.
Arneoker
QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 25 2007, 07:20 PM) *
please list the names of credible scientists/experts who actually debunk Popular Mechanics' scientists/experts.

One can site sources on the www/bet until the cows come home. Just because it is on the web doesn't make it true.

I can independently fact check (without taking a web/net site's version) all of PM's sources and the credibility of their experts/scientists.

please....no links to long articles and suspect sources.

Fair is fair.

The links that Magmak listed discuss several specific issues, and some of the stuff is pretty well footnoted. Now I haven't spent the time to really analyze them myself, so I cannot really say if they constitute compelling cases, or are a pile of crap (Ann Coulter is known for footnoting the stuff in her books, apparently with sources that often contradict the point she is making). One of the issues discussed concerns the whole "standown" controversy. Is it suspicious that NORAD was not able to intercept these flights once they learned something was wrong, especially the later flights, AA #77 and United #93, which crashed later? Now one of the links that I provided was to a 911 skeptic site discussing the standown controversy, contending that it is not all that suspicious that those flights were not intercepted. So people have something to chew on, from both sides, and of course anyone can do their own research. Now I have been skeptical of all of these alternative theories, and think many of the arguments made by the "911 Truthers" are quite specious. But we need to deal with these different arguments on the specific points they make, not just simply say they aren't credible. The former is the approach (people will have to decide how well they do that) taken by the skeptic site that I linked.
Arneoker
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Jul 25 2007, 11:51 PM) *
Why don't you read the 3 long threads about this very thing...
In the end, if only 1 percent of the official story is false, then the official story is a lie (because the official story needs no action, it is suppose to be, well, true)
If 99 out 100 percent of the other ideas are false, that leaves the 1 percent that makes the official story false.

End of story.


Actually it isn't the end. If the official story is wrong, then what story is right? And how is any story going to have all the facts, and get all of them straight? There are just too many facts, and the majority of them, including (unfortunately) several key ones, will probably never be known. So inevitably any plausible story will be a difficult fit with some facts, due to an imperfect understanding of the facts, and with all that happened, a few odd, flukey things occuring. And some parts of the story have stronger links to some other parts than they do to others. In other words, the Bushies could very well have done woefully little considering the warnings that they received, contradicting their contention that they did all that they could. But that (by itself) does not contradict the key official contention that this was done by Al Qaeda, not in the least.

QUOTE
Minutia means nothing anymore.
Except that 1% of the official story which is false, and thus dooms the whole story? Or how would that 1% not be minutia? It seems like you need to make a choice here.

QUOTE
there is just no way the official story is true.
Because if it was Poppa Bear would not have had W bear sit on his lap without a transcript, not under oath.

WHAT DID BUSHFAMILY KNOW AND WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT?


I think that you have a point here, but see my responses above.
graham4anything
70s lib- I don't know why you are taking this tact, as you usually have your eyes wide open to what's going on, and know things said true are false.

Is it my view on Israel that got your bumble bumbled?

This is highly unlike you.

You know very well, you can get 99 out lof 100 questions answered- it is the ONE question the official story can't answer that brings the entire thing down

You slyly make statements that are in itself unthruths...we know no such thing that al-queda did it, except that Bush said.
WHY WASN'T BIN-LADEN CHARGED BY FBI ON THE TOP TEN LIST WITH THIS CRIME IF HE DID IT???

(UNLEss of course you are playing devil's advocate...

I no longer need to justify back and forth on this issue.
My mind is 100percent convinced, my nose knows something stinks, and only a complete investigation with supeona power and one person not coached by another, that is all I want.

Nothing anyone says or does on this board will ever convince me, the issue has been debated, I voted, I have decided, in my mind I am 100percent correct. End of my discussion on it, although I will half heartedly still discuss it, but you won't no matter what change my view, because until the investigation is done as stated above by an independent prosecutor under oath, (ideally, each person needs to be questioned at exactly the same time so one person cannot compare answers to another)...andf the following repeatedly asked until it is answered:


WHAT DID GEORGE BUSH ADMINISTRATION(FAMILYINC.) KNOW AND WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT
WHAT DID GEORGE BUSH ADMINISTRATION(FAMILYINC.) KNOW AND WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT
WHAT DID GEORGE BUSH ADMINISTRATION(FAMILYINC.) KNOW AND WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT
Arneoker
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Jul 25 2007, 11:59 PM) *
al-cia-dah

there is no bin laden
there never was

Yeah, a 6 foot 11 giant plotting to take over the world while on diaylsis machine going cave to cave


How do we know that he has a diaylisis machine? We have heard rumors about his illness, that he might have kidney disease. (In fact I read in this week's Newsweek that he is rumored to be ill now.) But does that automatically mean he would be connected to a dialysis machine? And where he has been is not the equivalent of midtown Manhatten, contrary to popular belief. He was in the remote mountains of Afghanistan, when that country was ruled by his friends. He is apparently now in the remote mountains of Pakistan, where it is sparsely populated, the government has practically no control, and many of the tribes people there are friendly to him. And he is not 6 foot 11, but 9 foot 8.

QUOTE
Our great grandchildren will forever laugh at us for that bull-spit story, and how America fell for such a stupid ridiculous story
People are laughing at all kinds of stories now.

QUOTE
Muslims don't hate us. They love you and me. We live with them millions of them in the East coast alone, not one who wants any more or less than anyone else-their own little piece of the pie.
Of course the bushfamily don't like that.


I have never met a German who I didn't like. Does that mean Hitler was a great guy too?

QUOTE
And you are wrong. W is nothing. The Bushfamily is larger than he is. Jeb will one day be tsar, after Hillaryrodhamclintonbush gets her turn.
"The Bridge to Terabithia" was a more plausible, and charming fantasy.

QUOTE
The only terror is what looks back at Bush41 and Bush43 in their mirror. They are the terror.


The terror is in our minds, at least most of it.
graham4anything
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 26 2007, 11:19 AM) *
How do we know that he has a diaylisis machine? We have heard rumors about his illness, that he might have kidney disease. (In fact I read in this week's Newsweek that he is rumored to be ill now.) But does that automatically mean he would be connected to a dialysis machine? And where he has been is not the equivalent of midtown Manhatten, contrary to popular belief. He was in the remote mountains of Afghanistan, when that country was ruled by his friends. He is apparently now in the remote mountains of Pakistan, where it is sparsely populated, the government has practically no control, and many of the tribes people there are friendly to him. And he is not 6 foot 11, but 9 foot 8.


The official story is in Bush's media then and now, so they told me he was living in a cave and would be smoked out.

Hitler had psycological illness that could have been cured with 2007 medicine.
He was not the great evil, he was just a politician w