If Obama were to win...would it be time for savy Boomers to go underground?

Say they had money to pay for their health insurance and an Obama coattails effect swept Democrats into control (60+% of Senate) resulting in a National Health Insurance bill to pass...and he signed it.

Then it would be savy to reduce taxable income to drop below the level of those who have to antee up payroll deductions for said insurance...right?

Y'all really don't think people are gonna work when programs provide...do ya?

Said simply...if Obama wins and carries the Senate with him...I wait until national health insurance is about to pass...and retire...if it takes two years...I'll be 61 and one year from Social Security...all I'll have to do is hustle a year's income and skate.

Y'all don't think mature folks are gonna get took do ya? Young folks and the neophiles may carry an election, but they won't fool the mathamatical. We'll bail and leave it with y'all. Happy Trails.

Don't think it is about which age category you fit into - people have been voting AGAINST their self-interest for years. How about the poor working stiff Repubs who voted for BushCo tax cuts for the rich?

I think it is about uniting this country on the basis of FAIRNESS, and moving past the distractions of gay marriage and abortion. Those two items grab the headlines and while people are watching the morons on TV rant about them, BushCo is cutting taxes for his buddies.

High Crimes and Felonies.

IH - I think reading the details could benefit you and others need to be better informed also.. Here's a link:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

After reading through - not stopping at the intro - there are even links at the bottom to further info, and Q&A's.


And I do not share your opinion of the average citizen wanting and waiting to freeload. There are a few but I have lived in poverty areas like Appalachia and my impression is that 99.9% would prefer decent jobs, independence and have more self-respect than you give credit for.There needs to be a demand that corporations not chose where to base new operations on how much freeloading they can get out of the legislatures; tax concessions, utilities cost breaks, land deals, and on and on. Concentrated and continued urbanization is unhealthy both economically and environmentally.



lenal

Thanks lenal...I'd headed there now...
this is a reson I subscribe quick references...

Another defamatory post

All Clintonites here are so negative

This is the most #1 inane thing I have ever seen or heard in my life

Although I would give FREE insurance to all those kind gentle souls from below the border and maybe 1 million dollars a piece to every single one
They have a hard life, and it pains me to see them suffer so.

I personally think all human beings should hide if Hillary comes into office.
After all, she voted YES YES YES on the war and now 3900plus are dead.

You are only counting American Soldiers.

Not human beings

okay here's the official health care web site:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/pdf/HealthCareFullPlan.pdf

Unfortunately it has no actuarial tables (which is what any insurance company
uses to determine how many people, how many procedures and what the probabilities
are of each being in need/needed , to determine health care premiums required of customers).

Admitedly I'm showing the parts I have questions about, but it is 15 pages and probably
would be closer to 1,500 if details were attempted...here goes:

---------------------------

His plan promises:

(1) OBAMA’S PLAN TO COVER THE UNINSURED. Obama will make available a new national health plan which will give individuals the choice to buy affordable health coverage that is similar to the plan available to federal employees. The new public plan will be open to individuals without access to group coverage through their workplace or current public programs. It will also be available to people who are self-employed and small businesses that want to offer insurance to their employees.

The plan will have the following features:

�� Guaranteed eligibility. No American will be turned away FROM ANY
INSURANCE PLAN because of illness or pre-existing conditions.
(bump those rates the first time)

...

�� Affordable premiums, co-pays and deductibles. Participants will be charged
fair premiums and minimal co-pays for deductibles for preventive services.
(what is afforable? say you make $25,000 a year what would premiums be for a man
of a particular age group? is that Chicago-affordable? )

�� Subsidies. Individuals and families who do not qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP but still need assistance will
receive income-related federal subsidies to keep health insurance premiums affordable. They can
use the subsidy to buy into the new public plan or purchase a private health care plan.
(how much will subsidies be? who pays for them? how much is required for that guy
making $25,000 a year?)

�� Quality and efficiency. Participating hospitals and providers that participate in the new public plan will be
required to collect and report data to ensure that standards for health care quality, health information technology
and administration are being met.
(wait a minute, what happened to confidentiality of health records?)
...

(2) NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGE. To provide Americans with additional
options, the Obama plan will make available a National Health Insurance Exchange to help individuals
who wish to purchase a private insurance plan. The Exchange will act as a watchdog and help reform
the private insurance market by creating rules and standards for participating insurance plans to ensure
fairness and to make individual coverage more affordable and accessible. Through the Exchange, any
American will have the opportunity to enroll in the new public plan or purchase an approved private plan, and
income-based sliding scale subsidies will be provided for people and families who need it.
Insurers would have to issue every applicant a policy, and charge fair and stable premiums
that will not depend upon health status. The Exchange will require that all the plans offered are at least
as generous as the new public plan and meet the same standards for quality and efficiency.
Insurers would be required to justify an above-average premium increase to the Exchange.
The Exchange would evaluate plans and make the differences among the plans, including cost of services, transparent.

(3) EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTION. Employers that do not offer meaningful coverage or
make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees will be required to contribute
a percentage of payroll toward the costs of the national plan.

(4) MANDATORY COVERAGE OF CHILDREN. Obama will require that all children have
health care coverage. Obama will expand the number of options for young adults to get coverage by allowing
young people up to age 25 to continue coverage through their parents’ plans.

(5) EXPANSION OF MEDICAID AND SCHIP. Obama will expand eligibility for the
Medicaid and SCHIP programs and ensure that these programs continue to serve their critical safety net function.
(how much and to whom...at what cost?)

(6) FLEXIBILITY FOR STATE PLANS. Due to federal inaction, some states have taken the lead in health care reform.
These efforts are laudable and are helping to lead the way toward meaningful health care reform. The Obama plan
is a national one that builds on these efforts, and it will not replace what states are doing. Indeed, states can continue
to experiment, provided they meet the minimum standards of the national plan.
(doesn't this leave a loophole for rich states to opt out of the group, reducing the savings to poorer folks?)

...

Barack Obama believes we must dramatically redesign our health system to reduce inefficiency and waste and improve health care quality, which will drive down costs for families and individuals. The Obama plan will improve efficiency and lower costs in the health care system by: (1) offering federal reinsurance to employers to help ensure that unexpected or catastrophic illnesses do not make health insurance unaffordable or out of reach for businesses and their employees (2) ensuring that patients receive and providers deliver the best possible care; (3) adopting state-of-the-art health information technology systems; and (4) reforming our market structure to increase competition.
(#1 sounds good. #2 how? #3 there's that data bank again #4 - like top line in paragraph - who redesigns and reforms?)

...One of the
keys to eliminating waste and missed opportunities is to increase our investment in comparative effectiveness reviews and research. Comparative effectiveness studies provide crucial information about which drugs, devices and procedures are the best diagnostic and treatment options for individual patients. This information is developed by reviewing existing literature, analyzing electronic health care data, and conducting simple, real world studies of new technologies. Obama will establish an independent institute to guide reviews and research on comparative effectiveness, so that Americans and their doctors will have accurate and objective information to make the best decisions for their health and well-being.
(this sounds like the guidelines on procedures and costs of reviews developed by HMOs. how much payroll, how many square feet of office, how much in monthly utilities, hardware and software makes an "institute"?)

...Obama will tackle the root causes of health disparities by addressing differences in access to health coverage
and promoting prevention and public health (see below), both of which play a major role in addressing disparities.
He will also challenge the medical system to eliminate inequities in health care by requiring hospitals and health plans
to collect, analyze and report health care quality for disparity populations and holding them accountable for any differences found;
diversifying the workforce to ensure culturally effective care;
(health disparities? I thought that was income-based, which subsidies would address, is something else included? another set of
reports and data for health care quality for disparity populations? oh that won't cost anything... and tell me this how the
heck do you diversify the workforce to ensure culturally effective care? Is this a new affirmative action program nestled
in the national health insurance bureaucracy?)
...

Obama will also promote new models for addressing
physician errors that improve patient safety, strengthen the doctor-patient
relationship, and reduce the need for malpractice suits.
(explain how you do this...to me and the trial lawyers...please.)

Obama will invest $10 billion a year over the next five years to move the U.S. health care system to broad
adoption of standards-based electronic health information systems, including electronic health records.
(a figure! but it's removing confidentiality again.)

...his plan will force insurers to pay out a reasonable share of their premiums for patient care instead of keeping
exorbitant amounts for profits and administration.
("reasonable", "exorbitant"...figures please!)

...a quarter of schools adhere to nutritional standards for fat content in school lunches.
Obama will work with schools to create more healthful environments for children, including assistance with contract policy
development for local vendors, grant support for school-based health screening programs and clinical services, increased financial support for physical education, and educational programs for students.
(new school programs in the national health insurance program...spreading out funding further...)

...the existing workforce is further challenged by inadequate training about new health threats such as bioterrorism and avian flu, antiquated funding and reimbursement mechanisms, and limited access to real-time information and technical support. Barack Obama will expand funding—including loan repayment,adequate reimbursement, grants for training curricula, and infrastructure support to improve working conditions— to ensure a strong workforce that will champion prevention and public health activities.
(more programs...this time for terrorism and infrastructure. )

...Preventive care only works if Americans take personal responsibility for their health and make the right decisions in their own lives – if they eat the right foods, stay active, and stop smoking.
(explain to me how this works...no white sauce? duck fat? get off the couch and walk 10 miles a day mandatory? quit smoking a must? just tobacco?)

And finally, the government must examine its own policies, including agricultural, educational, environmental and health policies, to assess and improve their effect on public health in this nation. As President,Barack Obama will prioritize all of these activities, to ensure a 21st century public health system and healthy America.
(now national health insurance stretches into agriculture and enviroment as well as education?)

----------------

Don't get me wrong I haven't read much about Hillary's plan yet...but dam*n! Can you see the general election debate?

Commentator: "Senator Obama what will that cost for the guy making $25,000 a year? How many jobs, machines and office space will
it require and at what cost? Must you weigh a certain amount, have a certain fat percentage, stop smoking to get the
no-prior conditions status? Do we all have to be as slim and healthy as you?"

What if I like my health, dental and vision insurance even though I have to pay co-pays through the nose...because
I can go to whom I want to, when I can schedule individually? This stuff is just a bit polyanna to me...I think I understand
Ron Paul...and John McCain's hands-off approaches more than I do these vast plans on a national scale...after all, remember I
work for local government and we still deliver the joke line: "I'm from the government and I'm hear to help you."

Prejudiced perhaps...defamatory of course not.
And Sir, you are the most negative poster on this board...so save ya breath.
You can't give free nothin' unless you have Warren Buffet's money, which of course
you (nor I) do not. So save the B.S. and the bleeding heart stuff. Attempt to be a gentleman,
that's enough.

kind gentle souls are many on this site and support both Obama and Hillary........!
I resent the fact that because I weigh and balance with intelligent conversation that I am negative!

Who called you negative?

...here's a taste of what's coming from the right-wing:

http://www.frc.org/

Today's Family Research Council (very conservative non-profit headed up by former La. State Rep. Tony Perkins)
Email Bulletin was plunking liberals on the back of the head (like the TV show NCIS):

Under H.R. 1424, employers who offer group health plans would be required to provide "substance-related disorder benefits"
and mental health care coverage that includes treatment for, among other things, jet lag, sibling rivalry, caffeine "intoxication,"
cross-dressing "fetishism," pedophilia, necrophilia, and gender identity disorders. Using the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual
of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) as its guide, H.R. 1424 would force employers to provide employees who have psycho-sexual
"conditions" the same level of treatment benefits as patients with medical diagnoses...Beware. This bill is just the tip of the
iceberg in liberals' plans for government-mandated universal health care. Do your part to preserve employers' rights.
Contact your congressman today and tell him or her to put an end to this insanity by voting "no" on H.R. 1424!

They may not be exactly accurate all the time, but they are usually close when it comes to legislation details on
ultra-conservative issues...can you see this initial attack coming on the National Health Insurrance issue? It's just the first volley.

so admit it indianhead

You will vote for McCain

He's a vet
AND a hero
AND a POW

marine too.

Why wouldn't you vote for McCain?
Being that Hillary and McCain are clones of each other, and both could be each other's running mate.

and indianhead-
if you think I am negative and don't like it, why the last months have you then resorted to going to my level?
(not that I agree with you, but just telling your words back)...

Do 2 wrongs all of a sudden=1 right
Same with dgg, same with others.

Either health plan will face extreme opposition and any pretense of knowing what either would morph into is absurd (with the exception of they would be toned down to garner support). Actually the amount of money spent precluding preexisting conditions is probably close to what covering everyone would cost the insurance companies and when you add in the extra costs to the system of these refusals it's likely we'd save money or at least break even on that aspect.

G4A...

Pretzel Logic 101:

1. Call someone defamatory and negative
2. When they respond that you are more negative, ask why they stoop to your level
3. Make an incomprehensible statement and claim opponent as source
4. Spread accusation to a broad group of differing people

Since board statements are public domain, I reserve the right to quote
any or all in my up-coming screen-play: "One Blew Over the CooCoo's Nest: Part Deux ".

Tom:

I have no idea what they might morph into, just what I think would be do-able.
You are probably right on pre-exisiting conditions our group allows them and it's smaller.
I have been absurd from time-to-time...according to my wife.

I've been told my problem isn't that I have multiple personalities, the problem is they all suck.

We keep trying to read the tea leaves based on what "experts" write about things they can't possibly guess about.

I think about all we know is disallowing exclusions and more prevention will save money but the overall program will be very expensive.

Tom, why does it cost money to preclude pre-existing conditions??

If an insurance carrier accepted pre-existing conditions, wouldn't people tend to just wait until they get sick to sign up?

1) They normally don't admit the reason so it takes lots of staff time to keep finding delays until the application needs to start again from scratch

2)They expend effort without getting any income.

3)Some pre-existing conditions are cheap under long term treatment and only expensive if untreated.

4) They have to advertise more to offset bad word of mouth.

5) Sometimes it leads to lawsuits.

6) Normally there's a waiting period when a pre existing condition isn't covered, often 2 years. They get money up front even if they don't have to pay for the treatment.

Beware of Propoganga from the Dark Side.

Any health plan should offer free and unlimited abortions to every single person who wants one in all 50 states

And free and over the counter RU486 to everyone

If people carried it around with them, abortions itself never would be needed

Also Plan B, they should have free vials for everyone

This bullspit about pharmacists/doctors letting people die because they are part of some freaky cults is ridiculous

Doctors are suppose to cure every single person who asks for their help, regardless of race,creed, religion

Free insurance should then mean free for any type of need whatsoever INCLUDING ABORTIONS

And free to anyone in the US, whether tourist or citizen or non-citizen.
Because anyone who gets sick in France or Canada gets cared for.
Anyone who wants should be allowed to come here and get healed.

Thanks for the explanation....makes sense.